Wikipedia talk:Verifiability
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RfC: Should the threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia be changed from verifiability, not truth to not just truth, but verifiability?


This is the change being discussed. Should the threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia be changed from verifiability, not truth to not just truth, but verifiability? I must ask: Whose truth? I'm totally opposed to this drastic change, which would amount to a repudiation of our core principles. Dlabtot (talk) 19:04, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

  • PLEASE do not change the wording of this RfC, or any of my other talk page comments. If you wish to file a different RfC after this one closes, fine. Dlabtot (talk) 20:29, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
  • I ASK AGAIN do not change the wording of this RfC, or any of my other talk page comments. If you wish to add commentary, fine. Do not delete mine. Dlabtot (talk) 20:39, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
A note - a third option, "not just accuracy, but verifiability" has also been proposed, and actually has, at this point, seemingly won over everybody who advocated "not just truth, but verifiability." Helpful comments will address both phrasings. Phil Sandifer (talk) 20:25, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

RfC Responses

  • I do not think that an average reader will look at that sentence and see a debate about Platonic truth and the absolute nature of truth. Rather, I think most people will read "truth" there as meaning "accuracy." Anybody who disputes that we want to include only accurate information in an encyclopedia should probably find another project to contribute to. Accuracy is a core principle of any encyclopedia. Note that the new wording does not promote or allow the "But it's true!" argument to insert unverifiable information - it merely requires that we strive for both. Doing otherwise is obviously unacceptable. Phil Sandifer (talk) 19:09, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
Significant viewpoints about notable topics, that are published in reliable sources, deserve inclusion, even if in the opinion of some, those significant, published views are "not true". Dlabtot (talk) 19:22, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
Sure. But a claim in a reliable source that is not true should not be reported as a fact. Significant but untrue (or questionably true) claims can be reported with careful attribution so as to preserve both truth and verifiability. To utterly demote truth, as the old language did, invites sloppy work. The challenge - and it is at times a hard one - is to preserve both truth and verifiability. In cases where the truth is contested we use NPOV to present everybody's claims. But no article should ever contain inaccurate information. Phil Sandifer (talk) 19:25, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
  • "Verifiability, not truth" has been a core principle of WP for a long time, and has a wide consensus. Diluting this crucial point, on which much of WP's edits hinge, would require a very wide consensus also. Crum375 (talk) 19:26, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
    • This isn't really an objection, to my mind. If there's something wrong with the new phrasing then I agree, it shouldn't be changed, but the argument "I oppose the change because it doesn't have consensus" doesn't seem to me to have a place in a discussion about the change's merits. It is also worth noting, it is inaccurate to say this weakens the phrase. Verifiability is still a threshold for inclusion. It just eliminates the idea that we should also ignore truth - in other words, it raises the bar. Describing it as a weakening is unfair. Phil Sandifer (talk) 19:34, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
      • It may seem to "raise the bar", but its effect is to lower it. See my reply to Steve McCluskey just below. The bar will be lowered if we aim for truth — we are not credentialed professionals, and we can only be trusted to correctly convey what published sources say about a topic. This can be verified (hence "verifiability") by any reader. If we assign to ourselves truth finding, we'll then produce material of dubious quality, that is unverifiable by our readers, with no author credentials. That is a drastic lowering of the quality bar. Crum375 (talk) 19:47, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
        • Again, though, you're treating the statement as putting truth above verifiability - it's not. The statement still clearly says verifiability is a must. (And indeed still stresses it above truth... well, accuracy now, as I think that sidesteps the big-T truth issue - verifiability is the one in boldface, clearly the emphasized point.) Phil Sandifer (talk) 19:50, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
  • I strongly agree with this change and feel it should be kept. The quotation "verifiability not truth" is one of those silly catchphrases that can be so easily misinterpreted and satirized. The substance of the change is really minor -- little more than an editorial tweak; I do not see it at all as diluting a core principle of Wikipedia. We are, after all, writing an encyclopedia that is meant to be reliable and trustworthy. --SteveMcCluskey (talk) 19:31, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
I've come around to the view that "verifiability not truth", although paradoxical, is right on target. Since writing the above I've used the phrase to answer two different advocates of fringe points of view who believed that they were advancing the truth and that the works cited in opposition to it were wrong. --SteveMcCluskey (talk) 13:09, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
An encyclopedia is a tertiary source, not a textbook. Our goal is to present to our audience, just like a good librarian at a library, only what reliable sources have to say about a topic. We should ensure the sources we use are of good quality and present them neutrally, but we should not strive to find an "ultimate truth" (which rarely if ever exists anyway), only to do a good job presenting the published sources. This is the essence of our mission here. Crum375 (talk) 19:37, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
I think that the use of the word "truth" to refer to "ultimate truth" is limited to specialized philosophical settings of which this policy is not a part. Few readers, if any, will look at the slogan and realize that we mean Platonic big-T truth. That said, what if we changed it to the original language of the page - not just accuracy, but verifiability? Phil Sandifer (talk) 19:46, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
The word "truth" is a philosophical concept, strongly related to "ultimate truth", and does not belong here. Our starting point is verifiability, which means everything we write must be attributable to a reliable published source, that readers should be able to verify on their own. Accuracy is important to ensure that what we say has in fact been published exactly that way, but the accuracy is secondary to verifiability and is part of the overall quality, just like good writing. Crum375 (talk) 19:55, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
Though the word "truth" is a philosophical concept, I do not think that, in common usage, its philosophical meaning is the primary one. Regardless, I think "accuracy" does sidestep this problem. I have to say, however, I think you are wrong to suggest that it is secondary to verifiability - have a look at the "history of the term" section below. The statement that Wikipedia should be accurate is absolutely a core principle, and a longer-standing demand than the current phrasing. Phil Sandifer (talk) 20:03, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
  • It's obviously the case that accuracy is a core principle of, uh, writing an encyclopedia, and that verifiability is useful as a way of getting to the accuracy of a given statement of a viewpoint. "Truth" as used in "verifiability, not truth" is directed at people who want certain POVs marked "right" or "wrong" rather than "widely held" or "not widely held" or "scientific consensus" or whatever. "Accuracy, but verify" also states the actual point perfectly well - David Gerard (talk) 20:12, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Just registering a generalized discontent with both options being debated here, with a grudging preference for the former iteration "verifiability, not truth," as it seems to me to convey the idea that verifiability is or may be a characteristic of "truth," but that the "truth" of a matter is not something WP is necessarily trying to convey, beyond reported facts and evidence, as it were. The phrase, "not only truth, but verifiability" seems to me to subordinate the concept of truth to the function or action of "verifiability," or capacity to be verified. "Accuracy" in this case can only mean conformity to facts established elsewhere, a characteristic best ascribed to "verifiability," although if something is accurate (to something else) it is often taken to be "true" of whatever that thing is. Ameriquedialectics 21:38, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
  • I liked the original wording; it was useful. In my experience, the people who say "but its true, why are you removing it?" are precisely the people who need this policy to keep them in line. Plus, it means my Wikimania t-shirt of a lisping Ronald Reagan saying "truth but verify" won't sell. --Relata refero (disp.) 10:09, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
    • Are there really, you think, contributors who say "but it's true, why are you removing it" who would not also understand a policy that says "not just truth, but verifiability?" In both cases the statement is clear that truth is not in and of itself sufficient. It's just that one statement makes the ridiculous claim that we are truth-neutral, whereas the other makes the (quite accurate) claim that we ensure our accuracy through verification. Phil Sandifer (talk) 14:24, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
      • I don't think its ridiculous to imply that we should be "truth-neutral". I do think we shouldn't be here to put the truth on Wikipedia, but represent what other people think is the truth. (Hence my username.) Here for example is the sort of person who is drawn to Wikipedia who needs to be reminded that what's true doesn't really matter, because tertiary sources don't tell the truth about the world, only about secondary sources. --Relata refero (disp.) 13:33, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
  • I strongly support the change. I worry that there are editors -- I believe that I have met some -- who justify the inclusion of some highly dubious material on the grounds that it has been published, and is therefore ipso facto "reliable" by virtue of being verifiable. I think that is is a particularly dangerous trend in BLP articles. I also question the inclusion of "mainstream newspapers" in the category of "most reliable" sources for the purposes of this policy statement. After seeing the "mainstream newspapers" in the U.S. and U.K. act as a megaphone for clearly bogus claims used to justify the Iraq war, I think that their claim to be "reliable sources" should be treated with some skepticism. --Terrawatt (talk) 06:51, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
  • I support "not just truth, but verifiability." Philosophical arguments about the nature of "truth" are outside the scope of the proposal -- the proposed change is simply an attempt to bring our language into alignment with our intent. The proposed change is not about the nature of "truth", it's about correcting our current words, which say we want "not truth". Thirdbeach (talk) 18:23, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
  • ...on second thought I'm still in favor of getting rid of "not truth" but favor the "accuracy" and "threshold" alternatives suggested elsewhere. Those alternate wordings get us past the whole set of concerns about the nature of truth. Thirdbeach (talk) 18:46, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
  • I think it is fine just the way it is and has been since 2003, "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth." (1 == 2)Until 18:57, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
    • Which 2003 version of the policy that says "not truth," exactly? (Clue - it wasn't any of the ones that said "Wikipedia strives to be accurate.") Phil Sandifer (talk) 19:00, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
      • Sorry, good catch. I was mislead by a comment lower on the page. It seem that it was indeed this edit in 2005 that introduced the concept of verifiability, not truth. My position remains the same. (1 == 2)Until 20:26, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
Original source of VNT: Thanks to Phil Sandifer and Until(1 == 2) I can add detail to Phil's observation (buried below) that the original coiner of "verifiability, not truth" (and the text inserted in 2005) was SlimVirgin on 8 Dec 2004 with this edit to a draft of NOR ("Wikipedia is about what is verifiable, not what is true"). The edit is explained here ("I may have labored the verifiability/truth distinction with my long example, but I did this because, time and again, editors don't seem to understand that their firm belief in something being true is not a reason to have it in Wikipedia") and again here ("They don't get that they're not allowed to insert something just because they personally know it to be true"). Slim's coinage based directly on Jimmy Wales's statement of 3 Dec which currently appears at footnote 1 of Wikipedia:NPOV, V and OR. JJB 14:35, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
  • I support the change, or the weaker phrasing "not just accuracy, but verifiability". — Carl (CBM · talk) 20:48, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Oppose. The proposal is to change from something we can legitimately promise -- that our product reflects the major opinions of reliable sources -- to something that we cannot promise -- that our product reflects the truth. Honest doctors and honest stockbrokers have the humility not to promise health or wealth. They promise only to do what is possible for doctors and stockbrokers to perform, and know that actual results depend on factors beyond their capacity to control and cannot be guaranteed. If we are willing to be similarly honest and similarly humble, we will recognize that while verification lies within our capacity to guarantee, truth does not. Best, --Shirahadasha (talk) 21:06, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Strongly oppose "Not just truth ..." is a complete reversal of the actual policy. If anything, it should be, "Not truth, nor accuracy, nor facts, nor correctness, but verifiability." To propose anything other than verifiability of notable points of view from reliable sources as a criteria for inclusion (e.g. that it is true, or accurate, or factually correct) defeats the whole purpose of this policy and NPOV which is that different editors have different views of what is true (or factually correct, or accurate, etc.). If "truth" or "accuracy" or "Correctness" were the criteria, we would have at least two articles on Jesus, and both of them would violate NPOV. "Verifiability, not truth" is the principle that givs NPOV its force. Slrubenstein | Talk 21:19, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
We have even more than that.. Besides Jesus, we have: Biblical Jesus, Religious perspectives on Jesus, encompassing separate subarticles on Christian views of Jesus, Jesus in Islam etc. etc. ; Historical Jesus, Nontrinitariansism, Jesus myth hypothesis, Jesus and comparative mythology ; not to mention Cultural depictions of Jesus . Genealogy of Jesus and about 30 other special topics and aspects. We do similar in other subjects, usually using slightly different titles to disguise the fact that we actually are accommodating a POV split. Personally, I feel that we ought to make it explicitly permitted. As now, each article would still be required to be fair and to at least refer to disagreements--but the full exposition of the other sides could be in other articles,if there is enough material. We already have an article Positions on Jerusalem with sections on Israeli Position, etc. No reason why those sections shouldn't be separate cross referenced articles. DGG (talk) 01:17, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Strong support for either new version "not just {truth|accuracy}, but verifiability". Other terms that would work are "source accuracy" or "faithfulness to source". Have felt for many moons that the "accepted" version was mangled and stunted, even after wrapping my mind around its accompanying rationalizations. Have skimmed Phil and am empathetic to most of what he says. One clear reason is that it breaks WP:LEAD: "truth" is not mentioned in the policy (except by Jimbo!), but "accuracy" is! The ease of satire is another negative. And no matter what people think truth is, it is not hard to define accuracy or verifiability; better to not even raise the issue. Precluding the "But it's true!" inclusionist objection happens in both versions, but the old is a poor compromise, while the new is sufficient but does not have the weaknesses of the old. JJB 23:08, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
  • If the point is that verifiable sources should be accurately represented, I don't think anyone would disagree - but this demand is entirely consistent with "Not truth, but verifiability" Slrubenstein | Talk 23:21, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
    • Thank you, but even in your view, the language should still be changed (due to ambiguity) to something like "not all that is true, but all that is verifiable", which also resolves some of the wording problems-- though I favor the proposal version. I was going to add, philosophically I see this particular debate as a battle between camps called perhaps "mainstream" and "alternative", or less charitably the "guild" and the "fringe", each of which fears the undue influence of the other. The socks object to the cabal and vice versa. This debate, like its close relative deletionism vs. inclusionism, is not likely to be solved easily by consensus between the two. The present language favors the mainstream too much, and definitely needs change; the proposed change counterweights toward the alternative stream (but perhaps too much), and is open to variations; but at any rate the language should not favor either camp. Both camps should rally around the fact that if all assume good faith, pursue improvement, and do not cheat, the project will ultimately succeed, whichever version is favored here. That is where to address the fears that either side will abuse verifiability for their own POV ends. In this kind of wording debate we can only hope not to throw licenses for anyone to abuse either inclusion or deletion. JJB 00:57, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
  • In my view, there are two kinds of encyclopedias, and people are free to work on which ever one suits their fancy. One kind is the conventional encyclopedia with a editorial board that establishes and enforces certain criteria for quality and, to the point, veracity; if you care about truth, work for an enecylopedia that cares about truth and submit yourself to their editorial control. The other Kind is wikipedia, in which anyone can edit at ay time and there is no editorial control and no standards for veracity or quality established or enforced by an editorial board. Every editor has their own ideas about truth, veracity, accuracy. NPOV is the sine qua non that enables all these people to work together. It is because we reject truth as a criteria that we need the NPOV policy, and it is really the NPOV policy that enables us to dispense with truth as a criteria. Since NPOV goes along with dispensing with "truth" as a criteria, we need some other minimum standard for inclusion. One is included in the NPOV policy - the POV must be notable. The other is enshrined in this policy, that the view is verifiable. I have no problem with people rejecting this framework - indeed, virtually all other encyclopedias do not use it. And like I said, people are free to try to work for them if they wish. I think we are the only encyclopedia that has this alternate framework ... out of so many others ... and yet there are people that wish to get rid of this framework, which makes us distinctive? That would be a real loss. Might as well just go back to EB. Not that it is a bad encyclopedia. I just think it is good that out of the hundreds of encyclopedias that do exist, there be one, just one, based on the NPOV/V framework and not the "truth" criteria of all the others. Slrubenstein | Talk 01:13, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
  • I'm afraid you have been misinformed about this project. We are striving to make an encyclopedia - that means we want our content to be equally accurate (or true, if you prefer) as that in other encyclopedias. NPOV and verifiability are methods we use to help reach the goal of accuracy; they aren't a rejection of it. — Carl (CBM · talk) 01:18, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
  • I am afraid it is you who are misinformed. You just do not seem to get it. Perhaps the idea is too coplex or subtle for you. Too bad. Slrubenstein | Talk 01:35, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
Rubenstein, your POV is fascinating but contains a flawed argument. The short version is that you make WP ripe for hoaxers. With a little work, creating a reliable-looking, independent-seeming website farm and publishing otherwise noncontroversial articles with occasional completely false statements, any small group could manufacture a verifiable notability for, say, a nonexistent rock band or church. Separating verifiability from accuracy is a very messy divorce. The potential (meaning probable) inclusion of "verifiable" and "notable" false information is not encyclopedic and I must politely disagree with your view that it should be a WP distinctive. But would you agree with the above suggestion that your inclusion standard is fairly described as "not all that is true, but all that is verifiable"? JJB 13:47, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
No, I still adhere to "Verifiability, not truth." The cases you mention are already handled by other provisions of our NPOV policy, that we include all notable views, and do not give undue weight. See also our policy on fringe views. NPOV and its various adjunct policies covers this concern. Slrubenstein | Talk 13:58, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, the philosophical flaw remains. Your implication that WP does not care about truth is fundamentally contrary to WP:AGF. I do not wish to give the long version of the argument now. Do you believe "verifiability, not truth" is equivalent to WP:ATT: "whether material is attributable to a reliable published source, not whether we think it is true"? I do not think they are equivalent. If you think they are not equivalent, you should comment on how to fix the problem that the long WP:ATT version is presented as a summary of the short WP:V version. If you think they are equivalent, you have no reason not to accommodate my view that the longer statement is better here. JJB 16:56, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
  • "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth." The statement is a contradiction, for the process of verifying information by reference is itself a guarantee about what the reference actually said/did(in truth to the best of our knowledge). The two are not mutually exclusive, also for the reason that referencing a "reliable" source is to get closer to the truth of any particular scenario. --Jweston2 (talk) 08:29, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Strong, strong oppose. The revised wording makes verifiability seem secondary to truth. Verifiability comes first. Otherwise the Wiki process becomes a game of my word vs. yours. - Chardish (talk) 06:38, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Conditional support The problem with truth is that it's hard to define or measure. In articles on physical sciences the "truth" is usually clear enough, but in social sciences "truth" is often a matter of opinion because the systems they describe are too complex, models are to inaccurate, and empirical data is too unreliable. So I suggest the following: "the threshold for inclusion is verifiability and falsifiability, not truth". This still would prevent Wikipedia from presenting falsifiable theories (such as Young Earth Creationism) from notable, yet flawed, sources as "knowledge". Falsifiability is easier to establish than "truth". Cambrasa confab 21:36, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
    • Starting off with the premise that "Creationism" is "falsifiable" is itself an absolute statement about the truth, and so is subject to its own criticism.--Jweston2 (talk) 13:45, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

←Are we done with the RfC? I don't have any strong feelings about it, but after seeing the last 2000 or so talk messages, I think we might be doing a disservice to invite people in for discussion when it's pretty clear that not much is going to happen unless a lot of people are working on it all at once. There have been a few positive incremental changes, and that's probably good enough for now. Is anyone interested in trying to generate another large discussion soon? - Dan Dank55 (talk)(mistakes) 13:57, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps (IMHO) my bringing in text from WP:ATT has finessed the problem? Perhaps those in favor of the RFC proposed change (like myself) might be amenable to stopping for now with that compromise clarification, which distances itself from any assault on "the truth" by stating that the standard rejected is instead "what we think is true"? JJB 15:04, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
I'd urge that we not close this discussion. The current text reads, "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth, that is, not whether we think it is true." I think I might understand the intent but the current verbiage (with apologies to JJB) doesn't clearly communicate the intent. I'd recommend something like, "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not any one individual's perception of truth." Thirdbeach (talk) 17:27, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
I don't have any problem with that viewpoint, I just don't want anyone to waste Wiki-time that could be used more productively. We've had something like 2000 messages so far recently on this and similar topics; a few people discussing it will be defeated, and any significant language change will be defeated, most likely. There's a lot of debate fatigue, and pushing on would probably generate some anger. Let's give it 6 months. Besides, what's really important is the relevant data, and we're slowly collecting that for the next go-round. - Dan Dank55 (talk)(mistakes) 17:54, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Support slight reword: "Verifiability, not just truth". Is it really so difficult to insert a single word that clarifies the situation? I think most people would agree that in order to be included in an encyclopedia, a statement must be true. But in addition to it merely being true, it also has to be verified - if someone doubts that a particular statement is true, they should be able to access a source that backs up the statement. The original wording of "Verifiability, not truth" takes a fair amount of thinking, and it seems to slip people up. As someone else said in this (massive) discussion, that wording seems to imply that "truth" and "verifiability" are somehow exclusive. By incorporating "not just truth", the two are now more obviously inclusive, with verifiability taking the lead. (I would also heartily support replacing "truth" with "accuracy", to get around potential problems with people arguing on the nature of truth.) — KieferSkunk (talk) — 04:27, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Accuracy, checked by verifying

  • Accuracy is the goal. Verifiability is the tool we've adopted to get us there. We want to accurately reflect secondary sources. We therefore provide cites to our sources so that other editors can verify that we have accurately summarised or represented them. That's my understanding, and should be how the policy reads. So no mention of the word truth at all, but rather mention of the word accurately. Whether the accurate summary belongs in an article is down to WP:NPOV. Hiding T 11:09, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
Yup, agree that "accuracy" better reflects Wikipedia's goals than "truth". My suggested amendment above tries to work with "truth", but replacing "truth" with "accuracy" in the written policy would be a better outcome. Thirdbeach (talk) 17:33, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
Side discussion initiated by JJB's edit
Try now. You'll note that the policies generally focus on accuracy instead of truth already; however, I think one mention of truth (which emphasizes that our POVs about truth should not be our inclusion threshold) is well-rooted in consensus. JJB 22:05, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
Guys, please skim the last month or so's talk page edits if you want to fiddle around with the lead section. A lot has been said. - Dan Dank55 (talk)(mistakes) 22:40, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, I've been reading them. Let's invoke WP:BRD as two interested editors. The sequence here is: long RFC for changing lead, without any proposal gaining new consensus; I import text from WP:ATT as having prior consensus which can be promoted (recognizing a slight redundancy); it stands scrutiny for a week or so; it gets trimmed back to a less redundant but less readable version; then I copyedit the clause minimally. That is, my latest edit is IMHO the least change possible to maintain both my (presumably consensus-building) proposal and the readability concerns. I would think that my latest edit is so "minor" as not to need immediate reversion when my earlier bold edit stood for so long, and I would think that by any consideration it's an improvement over the immediately prior version you reverted to. So I don't see any immediate value in your reversion, which also negated my improvement in footnote style. Would you mind (if you don't opt to self-revert) explaining why you consider this latest edit to be fiddling (as opposed to the other edits), or what version would address the concerns expressed by Thirdbeach and my copyedit? Thank you. JJB 23:47, 30 April 2008 (UTC) And you restored half my first edit, so why not the same thing expressed in better phrasing? Also, which of the 3000 comments contravenes either of my edits? I'm not thinking of any offhand. Thanks. JJB 23:52, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
All of them. Every time we tried to make any significant change, even much simpler ones than the one you just made, they were reverted. If you change the text to something people can't parse or don't recognize, they are not going to run through the last 3000 messages and give you a nuanced reply, they're going to pick a date, roll it back, and we will have lost the little progress we've made. It's important to build data to support the few changes that were made, so that we have a strong case if someone tries to roll us back, and it's important that we not bait people into coming back at a time when they're debate-fatigued and likely to be short-tempered. - Dan Dank55 (talk)(mistakes) 23:59, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
Umm. I see that the only other changes to withstand time, besides mine, were "verifiable" -> "verifiability" and "familiarize" -> "try to familiarize". Is there no difference between my edit standing for a week and the various former compromise attempts? Which comment specifically says either of my edits really or hypothetically was unhelpful? (Not something saying "any edit would be unhelpful".) How was either of my edits not parseable or recognizable? What progress have we made? How would it be undone if someone rolled back and you reverted claiming new consensus (which in fact you did with Brando)? How do you think I might be liable to baiting others and why do you suspect others might be fatigued or short-tempered? I apologize for failing to understand. I also asked a couple questions at my talk. I ask lots of questions when I get confused. JJB 00:20, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

←Oh god not again, please. Here's the diff since the last edit on Apr 3:

  • "Verifiable" in... -> that is, not whether we think it is true. "Verifiability" in...
  • Any edit lacking -> Any material lacking
  • without giving them a chance -> without giving them sufficient time
  • consider moving it to the talk page. Alternatively, you may tag... -> consider tagging a sentence by adding the {{fact}} template, a section with {{unreferencedsection}}, or the article with {{refimprove}} or {{unreferenced}}. Alternatively, you may move...
  • Do not leave unsourced information in articles for too long, or at all in the case of information about living persons. -> Do not leave unsourced information that may damage the reputation of living persons or organizations in articles (See Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons for details of this policy).
  • {{shortcut}} ->{{policy shortcut}}
  • A couple of See also's were added.

See how much we got done? And other than the shortcut fix, every edit was a Sisyphean effort, with the boulder rolling downhill as often as it rolled uphill. If we can keep that much for a few months, then we can demonstrate that it didn't do any of the harm that the opposition feared, and that it does help to make the policy clearer, and reduce arguments in the long run (although it sure as heck didn't in the short run). If you didn't see any arguments against inserting extra words in the lead section, then you haven't read much of the discussion. If you go against consensus, you risk losing what we gained. What you added recently, "not whether we think it is true", is fine with me, but not with some others; although if we got consensus for anything, it was that. - Dan Dank55 (talk)(mistakes) 01:53, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

OK, that clarifies that by ground gained you mean in the other sections; so that narrows where I'm at a loss. You presumably fear that I might go against consensus and "risk losing" these other sections. Since you wish to work on a different critical debate, why don't we do the short version, instead of me asking lots more questions: you self-revert, and let me suffer the fate of my relatively minor text rearrangement on its own merits? I promise I'll undo any thoughtless rollbacks of these other "Sisyphean" victories—as if anyone reputable would actually be so careless! And I see no significant difference between the meaning of your and my edits as compared in this diff. Thank you. JJB 02:48, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
"as if anyone reputable would actually be so careless"...that's not what I meant. I meant that if you change the text in a way that lots of other people have just indicated they don't like, then their reaction might not be patient, they may simply revert to an earlier time. That's how we would lose our progress. If we waited a few months before any big changes, we'd have a track record to show that the changes don't hurt anything, and the danger would probably be gone. I have no problem with reverting the words I just added in the first sentence; they were your words, of course. - Dan Dank55 (talk)(mistakes) 03:39, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
Nor is that what I meant, Dan. I thought the number of words above was sufficient to request reversion of your last undo of me, not your undo of Brando. Nor do your actions today accord with your actions last week, nor am I making sense of them at this hour. I am disappointed. But per BRD, I will wait a bit and make a different bold change. JJB 03:47, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
I misunderstood what you wanted me to revert. I participated fully in April's discussions, and it would be very bad faith for me to wait until only a few of the 50 or so people who participated are watching, and then try to sneak in words that just got rejected, so my hands are tied, even though I think the lead would benefit from clarification. Maybe things will go better for you. Best of luck. If you read the discussions, you'll see that the battle over the lead section was a close call. I'm sorry, I don't have time to watchlist here any more, I'm working on style guidelines and various projects for WP:Good articles. - Dan Dank55 (talk)(mistakes) 04:25, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
OK, thanks for explaining the misunderstanding in good faith. Just for the record, I edited 23 Apr while discussion was ongoing and in its full view, and with strong trust in consensus here and at WP:ATT. This stood until Brando130 on 29 Apr, who appears not to have otherwise contributed here recently. I don't see the edit history as showing that these words were rejected by you or Thirdbeach or anyone but Brando130 (whose minor redundancy concern was appropriate to mention), and I don't regard them as sneaking in. I will treat our interim miscommunication after Brando130 as a temporary hiatus, and present a new bold edit as representing a delayed revert of Brando130. I think in addition to continuing to reflect the consensus of 6.5 days (and the suddenly quieted discussion), it will also address the late concerns of Brando130 and Thirdbeach. However, of course, the edit will be open to invocation of BRD by others. Best of providence, and thank you for humoring me! JJB 14:04, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
I agree with your summary of recent events, and I'm glad you wrote that, since it shows that you aren't doing anything wrong. Like I say, I believe it would be bad faith for me to insert text at this time (given the appearance of losing that argument earlier in April), and I'm a little worried about someone else doing it, but give it your best shot ... just be gentle, and remember that WP:BRD requires gradual change, so that there is time to investigate any unintended consequences. My position was always that a few extra words of some kind were necessary so that everyone read the lead section the same way. As far as I can tell, the position of the opposition was that no fix was needed because there was no ambiguity and everyone read it the same way, and then proceeded to prove just the opposite when no one could agree on what the words meant over the course of 2000 messages. So, as I say, best of luck. - Dan Dank55 (talk)(mistakes) 15:46, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
Good changes, JJB. I think your new phrasing ("The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—meaning, in this context, whether readers are able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether we think it is true.") is a big improvement. Effectively articulates the intent. Thirdbeach (talk) 20:43, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

History of the term

The earliest phrasings of the policy had the following language: "The goal of Wikipedia is to become a complete and accurate encyclopedia." Indeed, the earliest form, from 2003, explicitly linked accuracy to verifiability: [1]. The change away from that was made by SlimVirgin in 2005, in this edit: [2]. There, accuracy was changed to "reliability." This is a subtle change, but I do not see it as one that moves us away from truth - the assumption is still that one relies on an encyclopedia to be true. In fact,t he purpose of the change seems to be one of parallelism - because we want to be reliable, we use reliable sources.

The "Verifiability, not truth" statement was imported a few days later from NOR in the following edit: [3]. The larger context of the statement makes the usage of the word "truth" clear - it's one about the absolute nature of truth - what I earlier referred to as big-T Truth. The statement used in the example, about a theory of Hawking's, would be stated as an attributed theory if it was being done right - that is, "In Article X, Hawking said...". Thus nothing that would fail the truth test, in this example, would be included - it's just that the unverifiable but true information of Hawking's later denunciation of the theory would not be included.

The overly long example, however, was rightly trimmed out, and we were left with the slogan, which, coupled with the (in hindsight regrettable) removal of the word "accurate" took us to the current position where we appear to be truth neutral. However, I see no evidence that the truth-neutral position was ever intended, and, if we are talking about core principles, it is clear that truth-neutrality is not a core principle - the original core principle did demand that Wikipedia be accurate. Phil Sandifer (talk) 19:44, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

How many times are you going to reply to this RfC? The point is not to provide you with a forum for a filibuster, but to get comments from a wide variety of editors. Dlabtot (talk) 20:00, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
Oddly enough, he does this for a living and counts as an actual, no foolin', expert on the subject; you don't. But I'm sure you're not letting that stop you either - David Gerard (talk) 20:12, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
What are you talking about? Dlabtot (talk) 20:15, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
That "LOL UR TALKIN 2 MCH" contravenes long-established practice on Wikipedia talk pages, and doesn't make you look too good either - David Gerard (talk) 20:17, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
I guess somehow that explains "he does this for a living and counts as an actual, no foolin', expert on the subject". Then again, maybe not. Dlabtot (talk) 20:21, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
I assume he's referring to the fact that I teach college composition and research skills. Which is less germane to this particular debate (as I don't teach "fundamental nature of an encyclopedia"), but does still heavily inform my perspective. Certainly I am disinclined to give my students a good grade when they cite a source and then totally screw up the whole "getting it right" thing. :) Phil Sandifer (talk) 20:21, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
Right, what we are talking about here, is writing an open source encyclopedia, which is not something you do for a living. As to whether you are an expert on the subject, I'll leave that for consensus to decide. Dlabtot (talk) 20:24, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
Fight the power! - David Gerard (talk) 20:30, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
I don't think the open source nature of the project changes the fact that it ought be a reputable and acceptable presentation of researched information. There seems to be a general consensus on the part of the states of Florida and Illinois that I am a sufficient expert on the presentation of researched information to be allowed to teach it to college students. Phil Sandifer (talk) 20:27, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
As I noted above, "accuracy" is part of the overall quality of the article, similar to good writing. Verifiability, OTOH, is a key concept, which underpins our effort as a tertiary source. Crum375 (talk) 20:02, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
I think accuracy is the point of verifiability - it should be possible to verify our articles, yes. But verify what? The answer, at least in the original policy, is clearly that one should be able to verify our accuracy. And I see no evidence that anybody ever intended the meaning to drift from this - the word "accuracy" was removed in favor of reliability, but that does not seem to me to have been intended as a seismic shift in our goals. (Though, SlimVirgin - can you explain your thoughts on that change?) Accuracy has always been the fundamental goal underlying our demand for verifiability. Phil Sandifer (talk) 20:06, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
Accuracy is not the point of verifiability — verifiability is our ultimate goal. We'd like our readers to be able to verify that our writing is properly sourced. "Accuracy" is not well defined: it could mean accuracy relative to some hypothetical "truth", or relative to the sources (i.e. that we correctly copied or paraphrased them). Since we can't address ultimate truths (as we lack credentials and it would violate WP:NOR), we can only strive for the second kind of accuracy, which is similar to ensuring proper spelling and overall good writing quality, and is secondary to verifiability as a key concept. Crum375 (talk) 20:32, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
Accuracy in this context - on any topic, we want to show the various significant viewpoints that have been cited in reliable sources. Enterprising readers or prospective editors need to be able to verify that those citations are accurate and additionally are provided the ability to judge our characterizations of those sources, and the overall topic, for themselves. Truth doesn't really enter into it. Dlabtot (talk) 20:36, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
For the most part, truth and accuracy are treated by people as synonyms. But you're right - "truth" does have philosophical connotations that, while secondary to its everyday usage, could be confusing in their own right. "Not just accuracy, but verifiability" captures the point perfectly without making the ludicrous (and embarrassing) statement that we don't care if we get it right, we just care that we're not the only ones who are wrong. Phil Sandifer (talk) 20:40, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
"Don't just be accurate - be verifiably accurate." Indeed. "Verifiability not truth" is a phrase that only makes sense as Wikipedia jargon. In terms of relations with the outside world, it's nearly as problematic in my experience as the Wikipedia jargon usage of "notable" - David Gerard (talk) 20:50, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
With all due respect, that's nuts. Accuracy is clearly our ultimate goal. It always has been. It was in the original policy, and no consensus for the sort of radical subjectivism you're proposing has ever, as far as I can tell, been garnered - the idea of it came from a general drift of the language as documented above. The idea that Wikipedia should not pursue accuracy has no consensus. Which is unsurprising - the idea that an encyclopedia would be indifferent to its own accuracy is anathema to any sort of reputability, and aims towards a standard that is wholly unacceptable by any generally regarded method of assessing the presentation of information. Phil Sandifer (talk) 20:38, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
Accuracy is not unimportant — of course it is. But it is a derivative of verifiability. If we demand that a statement X be verifiable to source Y, every reader must be able to verify that Y said X (directly or paraphrased). If there is inaccuracy there, e.g. Y really said Z, and X != Z, then we have violated verifiability. Thus accuracy, as a measure of adherence to the source material, is not an independent parameter. Crum375 (talk) 20:55, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
I agree wholeheartedly - accuracy and verifiability should pretty much never come into conflict, and when they do it's usually a quick phrasing change to explicitly attribute claims that fixes it. The statement really is, in practice, deeply uncontroversial and trivial, serving mainly to close up a silly-sounding slogan that is too easily read as something we don't mean. (That is, we really, really do not mean "We don't care if our information is true," we mean "We're uninterested in discussions of TEH SEKRIT TRUTH TEH GOVERNEMNT DOESNT WANT U TO HEAR." And while those of us who are prone to getting into lengthy discussions of the policy understand that we don't mean "we don't care about small-t truth," we can probably avoid the appearance of visible idiocy with a slightly tighter phrasing. Phil Sandifer (talk) 21:01, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
I would support the change back to accuracy, as it makes the whole issue about neutrality preventing us from the determining "the truth" irrelevant and simply returns us to "please keep the encyclopedia accurate", as we should strive to do whether it's policy or not. Verifiability is a key concept, to be sure, but it's just a way to ensure that we're as accurate as possible. —Scott5114↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 20:07, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
The change to "reliability" appears to be part of the push to canonised "reliable sources" for all uses (not where they make sense - canonicalisation of authority, rather than reliability per fact). This too is something we're needing to pull back from as the attempt to mechanise the process of thought produces blithering absurdities - David Gerard (talk) 20:15, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

The apparent trouble with "verifiability, not truth" is that it presents the two as if they are in tension with one another, whereas people would normally consider the set of all verifiable claims to be a subset of all true claims. But in fact there are claims that are verifiable but untrue: if (for instance) today the scientific consensus is that there's a black hole at the center of the galaxy but next year it's discovered to be a (say) superdense wibblecluster instead, the previously verifiable claim will be found to have been untrue all along. But when writing today we would say that it is a black hole. --FOo (talk) 22:37, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Actually, no, the Milky Way article does not say that it is a black hole. What it actually says, which is much more proper, is: The galactic center harbors a compact object of very large mass (named Sagittarius A*), strongly suspected to be a supermassive black hole. Most galaxies are believed to have a supermassive black hole at their center. Dlabtot (talk) 23:46, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
Beg to differ. the Milky Way article (I am assuming good faith here) accurately and verifiably reports that that assertion is made by Blandford, R.D. (1999). "Origin and evolution of massive black holes in galactic nuclei". Galaxy Dynamics, proceedings of a conference held at Rutgers University, 8–12 Aug 1998,ASP Conference Series vol. 182.  In another article (e.g., Young Earth creationism) that assertion and the cited supporting source might not be as readily accepted as it is in the Milky Way article. -- Boracay Bill (talk) 03:48, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
I don't know how you arrived at your misunderstanding of my comment. I quoted verbatim from the article. It does not say that there is a black hole at the center of our galaxy. It says it is strongly suspected. And uses the citation you've reproduced here in support. Dlabtot (talk) 15:38, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
Again, you're hitting on big-T vs small-t truth. Yes, we cannot hope to aspire to absolute universal truth, and aspirations to that have no place in the project. But for the most part, when we say that there is a black hole in the center of the galaxy, we are not implicitly appending the statement "and this is ontologically and absolutely true" to the end of it. Instead, we implicitly append "to the best of our scientific knowledge" to the end of it. Big-T Truth is a philosophical concept. But when we tell people "Wikipedia does not care about truth," anyone who is not a policy wonk will assume we mean small-t truth, which amounts to "what, to the best of current human knowledge, is known to be accurate." And that's a problem. But as I've advocated, what about "accuracy," which seems to sidestep the philosophical implications of "truth?" Phil Sandifer (talk) 22:42, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
Why not just eliminate the unnecessary mention of "truth" in the first place, and open with "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability"? This would save us the problem of trying to develop an overly complicated or simplistic explanation of what WP's relationship to, or stance on, "truth" is, and then we could keep this page focused on discussions of verifiability in terms of accuracy. Ameriquedialectics 00:34, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
Boo-yah. It seems to me that Amerique nailed it precisely (and note: it didn't take a lot of words!) But I'd like to give people a chance to say if the "not truth" phrase has somehow made their job easier. - Dan Dank55 (talk) 02:32, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
That is a good question. I think the reason for this specific wording is to make it crystal clear that we don't strive to find "correct" information, by anyone's standard, but we instead only try to find what the published sources say about the subject. Many editors are unfortunately confused about this issue, and see WP as a big textbook written by the Internet community, which it isn't. Saying right up front that we don't aim for "truth", whatever that may mean, but to simply present reliably published information that is verifiable, hits that nail on the head. Removing it would cause this crucial point to be shoved lower down the page, and make it less clear than it is today. Crum375 (talk) 01:20, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, but that seems to me an over-correction. Which is why I'm inclined to demand both explicitly. Verifiability does not replace accuracy - it was always conceived as the way we ensure accuracy. I mean, that is, factually and historically, what the core principle was. "Verifiability, not truth" is a catchy slogan, but it is misleading - in its drive to boldly state the importance of verifiability, it makes a transparently silly statement. Phil Sandifer (talk) 02:32, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

More history. The term, as I said, was imported from WP:NOR. The original phrasing of WP:NOR was straight-up Jimbomancy: [4]. The key phrase here is "If your viewpoint is held by an extremely small minority, then whether it is true or not, whether you can prove it or not, it doesn't belong in Wikipedia." The key thing here is that *this is a restatement of NPOV*. In other words, what's being said here is that instead of making true statements about science, we make true statements about what important people say about science. i.e. not "For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction," but "Newton said that for every action..." Thus the initial rejection of truth is, in fact, a restatement of the fringe theories clause of NPOV.

The term "verifiability, not truth" came from a drafted revision to NOR from late 2004/early 2005. It was added by SlimVirgin in this edit: [5]. The Stephen Hawking example discussed above is present in the earliest version. I can find no discussion of that phrasing in the discussion around the draft, nor anywhere else. As far as I can tell, in fact, there has never been a serious discussion about either the removal of the word "accuracy" or the statement "verifiability, not truth" (which, as I discussed earlier, was not originally phrased in opposition to small-t truth). I see no evidence that there is or ever has been a consensus against the statement "Wikipedia strives to be accurate." Phil Sandifer (talk) 16:15, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

A problem if you are suggesting "Wikipedia strives to be accurate" for the lead sentence is that the policy itself is called "verifiability," not "accuracy." I would support the inclusion of a statement on accuracy but I don't see how it becomes an "either/or" proposition with "v≠t". I agree with you that the latter statement would seem like a silly contradiction to people not accustomed to philosophic subtleties, i.e. most of the general reading public, but I think it could be solved by eliminating the extraneous suggestion of a binary opposition or dichotomy that the policy doesn't try to clarify anyway. Making reference to any kind of "truth" is a bad thing, I think, if the policy does not explain what WP means by that, and trying to do so, I think, would create more problems than it would solve. Leaving "truth" in gets us in needless debates about what the referent of that concept is, which is a distraction, I think, from what this policy is trying to do, which is explain sourcing practices. Otherwise, I see no issue with including a specific, well-worded statement on accuracy in the lead section, but don't immediately see how the core ideas of either of these propositions negate each other. (While the latter one does negate itself, as is.) Ameriquedialectics 17:45, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
I don't think, in practice, that it's either-or - quite the contrary, I think that, if we are limiting ourselves to NPOV statements, there will be no verifiable statements that are inaccurate. The problem is largely one of self-presentation - saying flat out that we are not interested in truth appears to set a tone that is simply wrong for an encyclopedia, is not a principle that this page (or any other) was ever founded on, and that flies in the face of what people expect from an encyclopedia. Nobody, I don't think, seriously believes that anybody loads up Wikipedia and looks up information without the expectation that there it is put there because it is supposed to be accurate. Thus the phrase "not truth" becomes deeply misleading in a way that, I think, puts the whole page off on the wrong foot, because it makes the whole page seem like something that is presenting an alternative to truth. It's not - it's presenting a way of guaranteeing our accuracy. "See, we're accurate. Check for yourself." Even if we make no comment on accuracy - simply saying the threshhold is verifiability, that is preferable to the "not truth" phrase, which is actively wrong (as many people here have pointed out). Phil Sandifer (talk) 21:20, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
Mmmm... Accuracy is not the term either. The only accuracy we can assert is that what you find in Wikipedia is accurate as it relates to the verifiability of the sources we use. That is, we strive to describe accurately what reputable sources say about a subject, without asserting that the claims and viewpoints made in these sources are necessarily accurate. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:28, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
That's just NPOV, though. I mean, in essence, the three content policies fit together thusly. V notes that we ensure accuracy by having information be checkable in sources. NPOV notes that we restrict the sorts of things we say to statements about what other people say - that is, not "Every action has an equal and opposite reaction," but "Newton's third law of motion is..." NOR notes that we further restrict the people whose perspectives we offer to those who have mainstream, reputable views. Together we get the overall picture - Wikipedia provides an accurate and verifiable collection of what the major viewpoints ona given topic are. Phil Sandifer (talk) 21:36, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
Phil, the reason the current wording ("verifiability, not truth") is important is that Wikipedia (and Wikipedians) aren't really equipped to discover with "the Truth" is; I doubt anyone really is, and we shouldn't focus our efforts on that. All we can do is report what reliable sources have to say, so we need to guide editors to do exactly that, rather than trying to figure out what the "real truth" is about a matter, and writing an article to suit that view. Unless we strongly discourage people who are attempting to write "The TRUTH", we will end up with articles that start "Sun Myung Moon is the Second Coming of Christ, the "Savior", "returning Lord", and "True Parent"." After all, according to hundreds of thousands of people, that is "The TRUTH". Jayjg (talk) 04:55, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
Oops, Jay, I didn't see this comment before I deleted "not truth" just now. My sense was that we had consensus, although the discussion has died down so I'm really not sure. I felt two arguments were persuasive: everything that Amerique said, and also my point, which is: it's perfectly okay to say "truth", but don't do it on a core content page. If something on a core content page is unclear, it will cause arguments, and arguments will lead to changes, and lack of stability in a core content page leads to FUD. Let's let people argue what "truth" is somewhere else, and follow Amerique's advice not to distract the reader from a discussion of what verifiability is and isn't. However, I concede that, if my deletion of "not truth" survives, and now that we've taken Jimbo's big quote out of Burden of evidence, there's a legitimate criticism that the page may not do a good enough job of making our position perfectly clear to new editors. Can you think of language that doesn't have "truth" in it that could get the job done? -Dan Dank55 (talk) 09:46, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
I didn't see this comment before I posted above in unknowing agreement. I think Jay is quite right. --Relata refero (disp.) 10:11, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
First, none of the proposed wordings remove verifiability as a requirement - that is, there is nothing that is currently forbidden that is now allowed under the new wording. Second, this idea that people will read "verifiability, not truth," "not just truth but verifiability" or "not just accuracy but verifiability" as meaning, as JayJG so elegantly puts it, The TRUTH seems to me unfounded. Most people, I think, do not take the word to mean the sort of Platonic TRUTH you mean - the term, I think, is well-understood among Wikipedia policy wonks, but to someone who is not a policy wonk the term sounds like we don't care about accuracy. Which is not at all something we want to present. I mean, there are other ways we could fix it - we could reintroduce the long-standing sentence "Wikipedia strives for accuracy," then note that the threshhold for inclusion remains verifiability. But it is manifestly silly of us to have a policy page that openly and in boldface suggests that Wikipedia is unconcerned with accuracy. Phil Sandifer (talk) 14:22, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
Jayjg is right. Obviously. This is a pointless discussion. Slrubenstein | Talk 14:17, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
I think that the number of people who have expressed skepticism about the formulation, the fact that this wording *never* got serious discussion when it was proposed, and the fact that when it was proposed a lengthy explanation accompanied it which is long since gone suggests that, actually, there is nothing obvious about the statement that "verifiability, not truth" in its current form has or ever had consensus. Furthermore, there seem to be sensible objections being raised, not the least of which is that it is profoundly silly for an encyclopedia to openly declare itself uninterested in whether information within it is true. None of which is to say that we ought change our policy on requiring verifiability. But to declare the discussion pointless is utterly unhelpful to it. The discussion is, actually, pretty good. Please consider contributing to it with more substantive statements. Phil Sandifer (talk) 14:22, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
hmmm... I have always read the "Verifiability not Truth" phrase a bit differently than most of you seem to be doing. I have always understood it to mean that you can not include something just because you know/think it is true... you have to show that someone (a reliable source) other than you has reached that conclusion. In other words, the phrase in question is really a restatement of WP:NOR at its most basic level. Blueboar (talk) 14:34, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
Would the phrase "not just truth, but verifiability" thus seem equivalent to it in your mind? Phil Sandifer (talk) 14:44, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
To me, the phrase "not just truth, but verifiablity" implies that the editor knows the truth, and is avoiding claims that can't be verified because the editor realizes that readers don't trust editors. But the reality is the editor may not know the truth, is aware of his ignorance, and just puts in a balanced set of verifiable claims so the readers can draw their own conclusions. --Gerry Ashton (talk) 15:22, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
Either way seems to say the same thing to me. I think the real problem is that we don't fully explain what the phrase means (thus the confusion, and potential for abuse by wikilawyers). A brief sentence or two needs to be added. something like:
  • "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. While Wikipedia strives to provide accurate information on every topic it covers, editors should not add material simply because they know or think it is "true". The information also needs to be verifiable. "Verifiability" in this context means that readers should be able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source. ...." Blueboar (talk) 15:40, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
(edit conflicts) The problem as I see it is, the first line of this policy is being intended for widely different audiences: POV pushers who might need such an admonition re: "truth," and everyone else, I would say the vast majority of users, of varying degrees of sophistication, who will read "v≠t" and either think "smart" or "what BS!" To take care of one problem caused by some users, "v≠t," while appeasing some, offends others who basically see it as a logical contradiction, as evidenced by numerous debates over it located here:
I could not read more past archive#11, but the point that the line "v≠t" has been a constant cause of controversy from its inception has been made. By not explaining what WP means by truth, the policy leaves an opening for these debates to continue. Removing "not truth" removes this source of controversy. The "not truth" concept can perhaps be more effectively pursued at WP:NOT. Ameriquedialectics 16:09, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

←Thanks for the research, Amerique. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I have re-read every statement about the word truth, and I think we could get very wide consensus around keeping it in, but as the word of the people we're talking to, not as our word. So we couldn't keep it in the first sentence, but we could put it in the lead. Many suitable formulations, it seems to me, have already been proposed in this discussion. - Dan Dank55 (talk) 19:15, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

P.S. I like most of Blueboar's words just above, but I think Amerique's research demonstrates what happens when we even imply that we know what "not truth" means. I also agree with many others that, even though "not truth" has served a useful purpose on Wikipedia, it is a major turn-off for academics, policymakers, professionals and journalists. There's also a general principle here that we should keep hard-to-define and contentious words such as "truth" out of core content policies, no matter how useful they are. But I have no problem with Blueboar's "truth" in quotation marks. - Dan Dank55 (talk) 20:32, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
As before, it's a rather important point for editors to understand that although millions think they know "the truth" (and these truths are often diametrically opposed), neither we, nor really anyone else, is qualified to decide what "the truth" is. Jayjg (talk) 01:23, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
So you've said. And I, as well as others, have responded with concerns that the phrasing is misleading, that many people will not and do not distinguish between the sort of big-T philosophical truth you're discussing, and that the sentence looks like we're saying we don't care about accuracy. The "verifiability, not truth" phrasing does not seem to have consensus now, nor am I convinced that it ever has. Please propose an alternative. Phil Sandifer (talk) 01:27, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
Is there any reason why 'accuracy' is not open to identical problems of dual significance? --Relata refero (disp.) 14:38, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
It is, at least, not used in philosophical discussions about epistemology very much. So it's harder to bring that meaning into it. Phil Sandifer (talk) 14:42, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Proposed logjam break

I will take the liberty of WP:BOLDly importing the following clause from WP:ATT, after an em dash: "whether material is attributable to a reliable published source, not whether we think it is true". This represents ongoing consensus on that page, which is a summary of this page. The only opposition might come from any who wish to baldly state that unelucidated "VNT" is superior to all other formulations, but per my argument above, either VNT is identical to the longer version and the question is moot, or there is a problem with ATT's "summary", which can be solved by an edit like this one. JJB 03:43, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Having read the final I will note that the first time I read this phrase was when someone defended a speculative negative opinion about what two people might think about a third person at a RS blog. Does there need to be a clear distinction between fact and opinion?? Carol Moore 16:21, 23 April 2008 (UTC)Carolmooredc {talk}
Thanks Carol! So VNT has overlapped into personal attacks being defensible because truth is not our threshold? That's a consequence foreseen in this little essay I just wrote: JJB 17:37, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Please reference Original source of VNT subhead above. In Jimbo's statement at Wikipedia:NPOV, V and OR he wisely finesses the sometimes hard question "Is X true (credible)?" by answering two easier questions instead: "Who says X is true (credible)?" and "Is that source reliable (reputable)?" But note that, while changing the question, he retains the individual editor's responsibility to use good judgment (determination) while answering. For Jimbo, the standard is still that edits (even attributions) must be true: untruths of the form "Y says Z" can be reverted immediately on either ground, either that Y does not say Z, or that Y is not reliable. In short, this seems strongly to support versions like "verifiability, not just truth".

I believe an unintentional slippage from Jimbo's statement has occurred. He refers only to when it's "quite difficult for us to make any valid judgment", but that implicitly omits easy valid judgments, such as "1 + 1 = 2" (tagged as "refimprove" in 1 (number)). Millions of unsourced, noncontentious statements are retained where "Is X true?" is easy. In fact, it's somewhat harder to judge "Is there some source which reliably says 1 + 1 = 2 in the right context?" than it is to judge "Does 1 + 1 = 2?" (Insert random speculative 'I heard it somewhere from notorious paradoxer Bertrand Russell' pseudo information here.) The same omission is also implied in the current WP:OR as the material not "likely to be challenged" or not "open to interpretation".

This implication seems to slip away gradually and unconsciously in the comments I quoted above (not to pick on Slim, as the same slippage happens psychologically to us all at times, and is evident in several others' comments, but Slim's are handy right now). I repeat them in order, supplying qualifiers in italics where necessary to preserve Jimbo's implication: "what is verifiable, not only what is true"; "firm belief in something being true is not by itself a reason to have it in Wikipedia"; "not allowed to insert something contentious or not obvious just because they personally know it to be true". We slip into thinking that the reason we include "1 + 1 = 2" is not at all because we judge it independently obvious, but only because we judge it obvious that some reliable source must've said it by now. When we fail to allow for Jimbo's implication, we mistakenly think we must never judge statements of the form "X is true", but only those of the form "Y says Z" and "Y is reliable". The philosophical error is to forget that "Y says Z" and "Y is reliable" are also statements in the form "X is true". If we are presumably capable of judging reliability, it is only because we are capable of (often) judging truth itself. The converse philosophical error is to forget that if we are presumably incapable of judging truth itself, we are (always) incapable of judging reliability.

Now, every dispute on WP comes down to a matter of editors asserting X and not-X, and very often in cases other than attribution and reliability. But strict "VNT" would be compelled to say: WP cannot judge X, so it is inappropriate to take any action toward resolving a dispute over X. "VNJT" would say: WP can judge X, so it is appropriate to take action toward resolving those cases where I can best contribute-- and in fact that's how most people behave, even though they profess VNT over VNJT. Strict VNT is in conflict with our duty (IAR) that our behavior improves WP, because strict VNT encourages inaction in unresolved disputes, which worsens WP. On the other hand, the way most people actually behave in dispute resolution presumes that DR is fruitful, we can actually make independent truth-based judgments, and therefore the effective policy really is "not just truth". (Arguments like "we can judge truth in talk but not in mainspace" fail to split the difference, because truth claims have the same nature on both sides.)

In sum, I have demonstrated that we actually have slipped from VNJT to VNT; that this slippage leads to erratic claims about our ability to judge the validity of ordinary statements; and that this error in judgment, logically followed, contradicts the goal of improving WP. Having finally taken the time to write this out for you, I will be happy to answer questions and criticisms. JJB 17:37, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Not a good change - just on readability ground. The text now repeats itself. Just read it. "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—whether material is attributable to a reliable published source, not whether we think it is true. "Verifiability" in this context means that readers should be able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source" -- Why the redundancy? No good. Brando130 (talk) 15:55, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
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