An RFC on content related to naming conventions, as part of a naming conflict has opened, comments are welcome. MBisanztalk 01:53, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
The Ambiguity persists section refers to a table, which seems to no longer exist. I don't understand exactly what that sentence is trying to say, so I can correct it myself. Libcub (talk) 21:12, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Settlement names in unrecognised countries
What would be preferred name for a settlement located in an unrecognised state, say Abkhazia, where the local name (Abkhaz) differs from the name used by Georgia (Georgian), which the world's states think Abkhazia is part of, and where many (but not all) of the international sources have chosen to use a third option (the Russian name). Since we should write descriptively and not care about right or wrong, and since settlements are self-identifying entities, should be use the current local name (Abkhaz), or should we follow international sources in this and use Russian names?sephia karta 02:42, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
To further complicate the issue, say the settlement is rather obscure, and there is not a lot of references to it in English (language) international sources, and those few that do exist do not have a clear preference for one version or another. Also, say the majority of this settlements inhabitants are actually Georgians and use the Georgian name for it? What do we do then? (PaC (talk) 04:44, 30 March 2008 (UTC))
Do you mind if I'd rather you not further complicate the issue? I am interested in the situation which I outlined above.sephia karta 22:45, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
I was just making the description of the issue more in line with the reality. You may be interested in whatever you want. I am interested in this more realistic situation.(PaC (talk) 03:08, 31 March 2008 (UTC))
First: that's fine, but then start your own question, don't hijack mine. Second: what reality? I don't have any specific settlement in mind, but in any case the situation I outlined is not applicable to Ochamchira, in case that's what you're thinking, since there the Russian and the Abkhaz names actually coincide.sephia karta 16:44, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
First:"start your own question"??? How old are you Sephia? This is not your private chat. I ask the question where I see fit. If there was somebody here with a good answer to your original question then chances were they would have a good answer to mine as well. Second: did I say anything about Ochamchire?(PaC (talk) 18:22, 31 March 2008 (UTC))
You follow me here and reply to my question with a 'more realistic' scenario without knowing what settlement I have in mind. I consider that rude. And there is no need to act like you're telling me off.sephia karta 21:22, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
I think you are deliberately trying to sabotage my question now that your twisted version did not fly. Most people would consider your behavior extremely rude. Grow up.(PaC (talk) 20:41, 2 April 2008 (UTC))
I'll let your thoughts speak for themselves then.sephia karta 12:14, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
There is a dispute over at Talk:Linux as to whether the "Linux" slot in the WP namespace should occupied by an article about "Linux operating systems" or whether it should be a pure disambiguation page. Currently it is an article about the family of operating systems. The issue is complicated thus:
It is undisputed that what makes an operating system worthy of the Linux name is its inclusion of the Linux kernel.
It is undisputed that the name "Linux" technically (and maybe properly, but that is disputed by a few) refers to Linux, the operating system kernel, the article for which is found at Linux kernel.
Popularly, when someone says Linux, they probably mean much more than Linux (the kernel) and maybe even more than Linux (the family of operating systems each of which contains the Linux kernel), they may even mean all the applications packages in various Linux distributions.
There is a detergent called Linux.
Some hold that the proper name of almost all versions of Linux operating systems is GNU/Linux and others are vehemently opposed.
Recently one editor has been performing mass changes in articles changing links from GNU/Linux (which is a POV term, according to some, but is at least unambiguous) to Linux (which is often ambiguous).
(I consider the last two points only of tangential relevance to this particular discussion but they serve to inform the debate.)
In my view the "Linux" namespace slot has been misappropriated and that "Linux" should be a pure disambiguation page. Specifically I would like to do the following: (a) Move Linux to Linux operating system, (b) move Linux (disambiguation) to Linux and (c) leave linux kernel exactly where it is. I am trying hard to leave personal prejudice behind and despite a personal preference for the GNU/Linux term I am not in favour of naming the current Linux article GNU/Linux - with some that would be a highly unpopular move. I can't find any guidelines which disagree with my proposal [i.e. (a), (b) and (c)] and I believe the supporting guidelines for this are:
(1) use the most common name of a person or thing that does not conflict with the names of other people or things[1]
Hence "Linux" can't be used for the family of operating systems as Linux properly refers to the operating system kernel. I suggest "Linux operating system" and "Linux kernel".
(2) In cases where the common name of a subject is misleading, then it is sometimes reasonable to fall back on a well-accepted alternative. For example a "common" name for a tsunami is "tidal wave" (this term being less often used for the tides-related tidal bore). For this reason, the Tidal wave page is a disambiguation page, with links to the two other pages, and not a page giving details about either tsunami or tidal bore.[2]
That's why I favour a plain disambig page. The technical vs popular usage of "Linux" is very similar to the technical vs popular usage of "tidal wave". Same solution, therefore.
(3) But it does mean that we need to temper common usage when the commonly used term is unreasonably misleading or commonly regarded as offensive to one or more groups of people. ibid.
Yup. The bare word Linux can be unreasonably misleading. A weak point but supportive of my proposal.
(4) If there is extended discussion about which article truly is the primary topic, that may be a sign that there is in fact no primary topic, and that the disambiguation page should be located at the plain title with no "(disambiguation)".[3]
The discussion is ongoing and there is no compromise in sight. So, a plain title disambiguation page is best.
(5) When there is another term (such as Pocket billiards instead of Pool) or more complete name that is equally clear (such as Delta rocket instead of Delta), that should be used.[4]
This is a guideline telling us to use Linux kernel and not Linux for the article on Linux (i.e. the kernel). And similarly, why we should use Linux operating system and not Linux for the operating systems.
The strongest argument against my proposal is that we are supposed to be populist. The quoted guideline is from WP:NAME:
Generally, article naming should prefer what the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature.
This is justified by the following principle:
The names of Wikipedia articles should be optimized for readers over editors, and for a general audience over specialists.
In response I ask how come we have energy being the physics concept and work being a disambiguation page rather than some man-in-the-street article about labour, and why is car redirected to automobile and Mercedes to Mercedes-Benz, It seems that we do not dumb down at WP. That the term Linux is often used loosely or that it is used with implicit disambiguation (by context) does not, to me, seem to be good enough reason to have the Linux spot in the WP namespace occupied by an article on Linux operating systems.
There is a dispute at Talk:Bashkirian Airlines Flight 2937 about inclusion of both airliners that crashed in the incident into the article's title. The norm for other articles is to either put both planes or a date and a geographical representation of the area of the title (2002 Southern Germany Mid-Air Collision was recommended, and is used here as an example). Only in the case of a commercial airliner crashing into a civilian plane is the commercial airliner's name the only one used in the title. Since the debate has reached a standstill, I would appreciate it if an administrator could look over it and make a ruling to end said standstill. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vreddy92 (talk • contribs) 14:52, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Help needed in resolving naming conflict edit war!
Summary: Marsupial lion and Marsupial Lion do not point to the same location, due to a scientifically technical reason. However, a few of us believe that there should be a better way to handle the situation, which would involve disambiguation pages or links.
Warning-- a particularly stubborn user is edit warring on this, so be careful what you say.
There's currently an argument at Talk:Tarot over whether references to tarot in all Wikipedia articles need to explicitly use the terms 'game-playing tarot', 'divinatory tarot' and 'occult tarot' to distinguish these different applications, or whether 'tarot' is sufficient if the context is clear. I believe it is highly awkward and artificial to require the qualifiers 'game-playing', 'divinatory' or 'occult' to be tacked on in every instance, since in normal usage, all three applications are normally referred to as 'tarot'.
This guideline explains what to do if there is a naming conflict, but doesn't give guidance on determining whether there actually is a conflict in the first place. The editor proposing this awkward naming convention is, I believe, inventing terminology to segregate concepts he believes should be distinct.
In a nutshell: is 'tarot' sufficient (assuming the application is clear from the context), or must we always use these bulky terms?
Can anyone point me to a guideline or ruling that would be helpful in resolving this argument? Fuzzypeg★ 04:58, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
WP:POINT. Or even, WP:RS and WP:NOR. Point, because it sounds like this behavior and insistence is becoming disruptive. Reliable sources, because that is a foundation of our work and we shouldn't prescribe terminology that our sources aren't using (good writing shouldn't be slavish either, and Wikipedia needs consistency of its own, but in a conflict it is an easy default). NOR, because insisting on these qualifiers isn't something a generalist audience recognizes. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)
This is a matter of being precise in our language. I did not invent the term "occult tarot" but it is a term used in more academic writings on tarot. To tell you the truth, I don't even like the term but it's one that has been used by authors on tarot history so this is not a personal bias of mine. Simply Google the term "occult tarot" and one can find books from at least two authors, one of whom is Michael Dummett, and websites on tarot history have also used this term. On the deletion of the re-direct, I inadvertently recreated it thinking it's disappearance was due to an error in capitalization. I should have been informed of its deletion and the reasons for it. Nobody gave me the memo on my talk page! In articles pertaining to the classical elements to name an example, I think it should be specified it is an occultist interpretation. Fire is not a really a suit of the tarot! . I don't see the symbol for fire or these other elements on most tarot decks! Btw my last edit, as I write this, was on the French Tarot article where I specified it was the French game of tarot because I think it should also be known that it's a regional card game of France. Concepts exclusive to occult or divinatory tarot should be specified as such. Concepts exclusive to the Rider Waite deck such as the images chosen for trumps VIII and XI should also be specified as particular to that deck and not all of tarot. There is nothing bulky about the term "occult tarot" and because some aspects of tarot are independent of the occult, this term is in no way a tautology. It is POV language and not keeping with a world wide view to employ the word "tarot" as if it's the exclusive property of the occult.Smiloid (talk) 00:00, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
This isn't the appropriate place to conduct our debate; it is for questions and comments about the naming conflict guidelines. Lets keep our argument in one place, at Talk:Tarot. Fuzzypeg★ 00:49, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
Ireland
This paragraph in relation to Ireland is bunkum. It is written from the perspective that Republic of Ireland is the name of the state and Ireland is the common name. That is false. There is a dispute which is being talked through (badly) at the talk page of WP:IMOS. It is unhelpful that this disinformation is being used as fact in argument. Comment welcome there.Traditional unionist (talk) 11:18, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
Used WikiCleaner, please do not revert
Used WikiCleaner software to fix disambig. links. Please do not revert, thanks! Funandtrvl (talk) 14:51, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
