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Editors can post questions here about whether given sources are reliable, and editors interested in sourcing issues will answer. Please post new topics in a new section. If you are satisfied with a response, please tag your thread at the top with {{resolved}}.

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Denial of the Holodomor

-library science is not a reliable source in this respect [1] claims Relata refero regarding
Denial of the Ukrainian famine (1933) according to:

and keeps removing the fact and the sources from the article. Any thoughts?

Also, once this is here are sources like for example:

reliable sources that would define the subject unlike Relata refero claims the article is a violation of WP:SYNTH, WP:OR and WP:NPOV?

Thanks!--Termer (talk) 02:00, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Er, I checked the talk page, and you seem to be mentioning a great deal of things that are unrelated to RR's comment about one specific source being inadequate for this purpose. Broadly speaking, RR's complaint - and it looks reasonable, on a first look, to me - is that the article is written such that it labels any failure to conform to a maximalist, intentionalist vision of the Ukranian famine of 1933 as an orchestrated master plan of genocide as "Holodomor Denial," a concept that does not seem to be well-defined or subject to serious academic study. It is as if someone were to write an article called "Iraq Sanctions Denial" about people who say that the UN sanctions on Iraq did not kill 1/2 million people; yes, the best evidence would seem to indicate that this indeed happened, and two consecutive UN Humanitarian Co-ordinators for Iraq resigned in protest of this "genocide," but that doesn't mean that "Iraq Sanctions Denial" is suddenly a notable topic and that people who say the evidence is unclear or Saddam is mainly to blame can be labeled as "Iraq Sanctions Deniers." <eleland/talkedits> 03:25, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
Basically you're saying the article has notability issues? Please also comment on the question about the sources above. Thanks!--Termer (talk) 03:46, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
Rather than notability per se, I am concerned that there has been some POV-forking, or that there is a potential for POV-forking. It might be better to reabsorb the denial article and the genocide question article back into the main article on the Holodomor. Keeping such articles within a sensible length usually helps with maintaining NPOV and does not detract at all from the importance of the events. Itsmejudith (talk) 09:24, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
Termer, Relata is correct. The first reference above is to a book dealing with library science and more specifically the impact of the internet on information services. This is not a reliable source for a contentious piece of Soviet/Ukrainian history. That much is clear. The second source, which clearly Relata was not directly referring to in his "library science"{ comment, is from a book by Jeane Kirkpatrick, who seems to be well known for her anticommunist polemics. She may have held a PhD but in 1988 when the book was published she had long been entrenched in the front lines of Cold War politics, and should be very hesitantly used to source contentious aspects of Soviet history. That should also be rather obvious.PelleSmith (talk) 11:52, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
I think Itsmejudith might have some valid points and in case WP:Consensus can be reached about it, why not to keep all Holodomor related subjects in one article. I'd be open to that. However, I brought the books here to validate the reliability of the sources in the context, not that much what to do about the article in general. That I think would be a separate discussion that everybody could give their input in the relevant talk page.
Regarding J. Kirkpatric being "in the front lines of Cold War politics" according to PelleSmith, that is a statement that would need some clear sourcing on its own I think. Has Kirkpatric been referred to by any other scholars as not being a reliable author who has promoted fringe theories about Soviet history or anything like that?--Termer (talk) 16:46, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
I linked her entry in the hope that you might actually read it. She was a foreign policy adviser to Ronald Reagan and an outspoken critic of communism as a political figure. In terms of the Soviet Union, as far as I can tell, she was a polemicist and not a scholar. Where are her qualifications as a Russian or Ukrainian historian? We don't need an emphatic statement by another scholar about something that is this obvious. There are several writers who have PhDs and/or have taught at respectable Universities who also should not be used as reliable sources in areas that directly relate to their highly politicized public life - especially without any evidence that they have any academic expertise in these areas.PelleSmith (talk) 17:15, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
Well, in relation to the first two sources, Relata is quite right that the first relates to library science, not to history. Also, the second is not a mainstream historical work. History articles should be sourced from books and articles by qualified and practising historians, published in academic journals or books from academic presses. Their authors will usually have worked directly with the primary sources and will be competent users of the relevant language(s). I doubt whether Kirkpatrick was working in that way. Her writing would probably be a good source for commentary on current affairs or recent foreign policy, but not for unpicking events that happened decades ago and that professional historians are struggling to understand. Itsmejudith (talk) 16:54, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
Fair enough, including PelleSmith' points that Kirkpatric would be more like a primary source that would be valid only for citing a POV on the subject rather than a secondary source that an article on WP should be based on. How about the 3rd and 4th book in the context?--Termer (talk) 17:00, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
3 and 4 are both RS. Only one caveat, that you avoid giving prominence to any points that these sources only mention in passing. Itsmejudith (talk) 08:54, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
Thanks Itsmejudith! It all makes sense. Coming back to your previous points regarding the article in general, please let me know if I got it right. Since no serious mainstream scholar has really denied the occurrence of the famine ever. the subject itself is not considered "serious" subject of study since the 'denial of the famine' is limited to ...the communist Party of SU politics and some of it's supporters opinions. Therefore it's getting mentioned as a fact by those RS-s only in passing. But in general the subject itself is not serious enough or the denial is limited to too marginal political groups and therefore there is no point of studding it really or having a separate article on WP that: like put by someone at the articles talk page: provides a list of "crack-pot fringe-theorists" who deny the occurrence of the famine . Therefore it would be better to keep the subject as a part of the main article Holodomor? --Termer (talk) 16:04, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
It seems that some people are working hard to draw parallels between this famine and the Holocaust, hence the term Holodomor. And hence there is an article on Denial of the Holodomor. But Holocaust denial is a notable phenomenon in its own right. There is an extensive literature on it. There is no real parallel with denial of the Holodomor. Well, morally perhaps there is a parallel but we are looking for verifiability not truth. Itsmejudith (talk) 09:44, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

(Outdent) Hello, as a contributor to this article, I personally find the above entry repuslive. Here's why:

In 1932, soviet authorities started taking away grain from people and by 1933 those people were starving to death. The people in Ukraine who were dieing started using the word "Голодомор" - "Holodomor" which is derived from the word "holod" "голод" (hunger) and "moryty" "морити" (to cause to suffer). "Holodomor" described the situation that they faced - starvation, unless they joined the collective farms. There was a holod, a famine, throughout Ukraine, and people were starving in the streets. The soviet union was exporting grain in record quantities. Hence the idea of "moryty" - using food as a weapon.

More than ten years later, a word started creeping into the English vernacular - holocaust. It was from the greek word for sacrifice by fire - holokauston, and referred to Hitler's extermination policies. This word did not become common in English until it was connected to the word "genocide" in the 1950s, and the whole horror of Nazism sunk in. The word "Holodomor" is now becoming widespread, as the horrible results of communism are starting to sink in.

Although the words "Holodomor" and "Holocaust" may seem similar in modern English, they are in no way related. Although these two events may seem equally horrible in nature, they are in no way related. Although the articles about Holodomor Denial and Holocaust Denial may seem related, they are not. There has been no attempt to link the two. Please do not try to read into any reasons or find any hidden agendas by any editors. Thanks, Horlo (talk) 09:18, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

the similarity between 2 words Holodomor and Holocaust seems to be a concern for some editors. The similarity might be intentional and then again, it might not. (it is actually a good question how the name Holodomor came into use?) The real parallel would be there only if "Holodomor" would be accepted as an act of genocide by the majority in the world. So far it's not, so the name itself might confuse the reader. That's why I've suggested renaming the article to Denial of Ukrainian famine (1932) that would refer clearly to the denial of the occurrence of the famine as such and it would have nothing to do with "Holodomor genocide question".--Termer (talk) 21:10, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
Christ, I had another look, and that article is an atrocity. It perniciously lumps everything together: naive offhand remarks by visting diplomats in 1933, official decrees from Soviet news agencies that Ukraine is an earthly paradise, and mild revisionism criticizing the political use of dubious claims about a Stalinist master plan of genocide is all treated as one phenomenon. Renaming it "Denial of the Ukrainian Famine" would be a silly little diversion. <eleland/talkedits> 01:55, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) Allah, Yahweh, and Vishna to you also, my friend. What you may call an atrocity, others may call a work in progress. While it is difficult to organize such a vast topic as Holodomor Denial into one easy article, editors have taken on the task with a steady determination. Please help to improve the article, but please do not use phrases like "silly little". Thanks, Horlo (talk) 09:18, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

I did not realise that the two words were not at all connected. Thank you for enlightening me. Let us please keep civil here, all of us. I am coming new to this topic. I have proposed merging this article into the general one on the Holodomor for reasons I gave on the merge discussion talk page. I hope you will see that I am not doing this to advance any position at all. It is to ensure that we have good quality articles based on reliable sources, i.e. what was hoped for when the question was raised on this page. Although Eleland's wording was harsh I'm sure it was offered for the same reason. All our articles are work in progress. Itsmejudith (talk) 11:17, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
Hello, sorry if I came across gruff, but the great famine is still being denied - believe it or not, a Brazillian senator just came out with a claim that the Holodomor was a nazi invention. I think that that one act just gave a validity and relevance to this article. There are people denying the Holodomor, and people tracking said denial. That's why it should not be merged, but I will surely contribute to the discussion on the merger page.
I understand that you are simply responding to questions here. However, I have learned that editors' motives are as varied as the editors themselves. Therefore, when the first sentence I read starts with God's name, and includes words like atrocity, I think it is natural to challenge said editor. Hopefully, we can keep building. Thanks, Horlo (talk) 07:14, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

University Thesis

Is a University Thesis by someone about another person that is passed away considered to be a reliable source?Vivaldi27 (talk) 19:31, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

That's pretty borderline. If it's a biographical article I'd still try to find more widely-published sources. It would be a different matter if it was a thesis about an uncontroversial technical topic. Squidfryerchef (talk) 22:39, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
usually no. Most universities will let you get a MA or PhD with almost any thesis and the university is not officially on the hook for the claims made in the article. What is the source in question? Protonk (talk) 23:22, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
Finding a thesis is often useful as it gives you the name of an author. You can then search for books or articles written by that person. Academics often derive articles from their thesis while they are writing it or soon afterwards, and the whole thesis might be published in amended form as a book. Itsmejudith (talk) 10:17, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
A PhD thesis is certainly a RS. It isn't self-published and goes through a review process by a group of experts in the field. That's more than most books. Is a university Thesis something different? Hobit (talk) 21:30, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
I don't think that is true at all. Not all university theses are created alike. Plenty of PhD granting universities out there will accept a thesis that could never get published in academic press. The purpose of the thesis is mainly to demonstrate that the writer can formulate an independent work of scholarly interest. Usually the thesis ends up being published somewhere, but that is only after it is submitted for peer review. I absolutely disagree that a thesis is RS simply because of the review committee. Protonk (talk) 22:12, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
A PhD dissertation (at the very least in the humanities and social sciences and in the United States) goes through a rigorous review process by the dissertations readers most of whom are experts in the field and who are "on the hook" in some way or another. Protonk, the reason why a given PhD dissertation may not be publishable has nothing to do with the perceived reliability of its content. Do you have any evidence of that being the case because I've never heard this before?PelleSmith (talk) 22:23, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
Here are three older discussions related to this one: 1, 2, and 3. I will note that I only think a PhD dissertation from an accredited university (and not a lesser type of "thesis") should be considered reliable yet even in that case should be avoided when possible for novel and contentious claims.PelleSmith (talk) 22:36, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
(ec) I know that PhD's in the US in all fields go through a rigorous review. One of the elements of reliability (in terms of the "publisher") requires that the publisher take responsibility for the content. I also realize that many PhD dissertations are not publishable for reasons other than reliability (good and bad). Novelty bias, scope of subject, length of dissertation all impact likelihood of publication and do not impact what we would consider accuracy. Another element of reliability is editorial control. While PhD theses may be vetted for claims and evidence, most universities will eventually accept a thesis on most any subjects (assuming that the major professor ok's it). This is the antithesis of reliability in a publisher sense. We rely (rightly or wrongly) on third parties to select and cover topics. Fact checking is only an element of that outsourcing. Protonk (talk) 22:40, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
I'm with ProtonK here, and I'll add that, as always, the devil is in the details. If you're looking blanket statement that PhD theses from qualifier1, qualifier2, qualifier3 university are always/never reliable sources, then I don't think you're going to get one. In many subjects, theses from certain universities may be valid sources for certain types of claims, but in many cases they won't be. Theses aren't "published" in the usual sense of the word, and if claims made in a thesis are notable and/or valid, then one would hope that the claim would eventually show up in an unambiguously reliable source. In my own field (chemistry), crappy not-otherwise publishable material is sometimes (not often--but still with an unfortunate regularity) crammed into theses, since sometimes the best way to get rid of a lackluster grad student is to pass him/her out of the program. It's clean and easy, and everyone gets what they want--the prof gets rids of an underperforming grad student and the student gets a PhD. Happens all the time, even at "prestigious" universities. Yilloslime (t) 22:58, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
I realize now that I wasn't as clear as I had hoped to be. Here is my rundown: Reliability of a source (in this case, the word source refers to the publisher not the author) stems from three things. A reputation for fact checking. A reputation for selection and control of content. And a reputation for responsibility for that content. A PhD thesis from a major university only meets the first element. The rest are at best met on a case by case basis within given departments. Protonk (talk) 23:04, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
I disagree with this assessment. To suggest that there is no "selection and control of content" by seasoned experts in the field who are not the PhD candidate themselves is absurd and clearly wrong. Sure the university itself may not take responsibility in the manner of a publisher but it seems like neither of you are willing to account for aspects of the dissertation process that are simply different from the publishing process but may accomplish similar ends in terms of reliability. To suggest that dissertation readers (as opposed to the university as an institution) take no responsibility for the content of the dissertation is odd. We get it, the dissertation writing process is not the same as the process of getting a book published by an academic press, but why on earth is that the standard by which the dissertation needs to be judged in terms of reliability? Yilloslime, in your hypothetical situation everyone does not "get what they want". The university and the department in question will lose in the end if they continue to produce scholars who can't get jobs in no small part because the research that was approved and supervised by the department is of poor quality. Don't forget that a lot of garbage is published by university presses as well for various reasons. Could either of you offer something more than simple anecdotes to support the assertion that PhD dissertations cannot be considered reliable sources in most instances? I'm happy to repeat the notion that they should not be used for contentious and novel claims. Thanks.PelleSmith (talk) 23:45, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
Keep in mind that I'm not saying "never", I'm just saying "not usually". First, I don't agree that universities have incentives to maintain doctoral dissertation quality. That incentive is transferred largely to the student. In most fields there is a pressure to produce something worthy of publication in order to seek academic employment. In that case it is in the interests of the student to produce something of quality. For students who will not seek academic employment the university has no real incentive to control quality. Efficacy of graduate programs are judged based on the employment prospects of graduates and time to graduate, not the quality of dissertations. Second, we have no information on individual colleges and departments. While we can (and often do) judge sources bu their public face--tabloids are rebuked as tabloids, journals which practice rigorous fact checking are noted--we have no real way to determine this for the thousands of PhD programs in the United States alone. We can spot obvious diploma mills but review of these programs from a fact checking and editorial control standpoing is spotty at best. Third, we still don't have strong editorial control. While I agree that selection of a topic and scope are subject to the whim of the major professor, there is no guarantee that this results in some meaningful selection. I also want to contest the "just anecdote" notion. I don't see that you have offered some data about the overall accuracy of doctoral dissertation (or the average eventual publication). We are both providing reasons for our arguments and anecdotal (sometimes) examples. I can tell you that I go to a large Midwestern PhD granting university who is not in the top 10 academically. Our standards for dissertations are lower than the standards for publication in most fields. I have plenty of reason to believe that there is considerable variation in the quality of dissertations between universities and that they may not always be reliable sources. Protonk (talk) 05:05, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
I don't have much more than anecdotal information myself, but I'm not asserting that a certain form of large scale research project supposedly done under expert supervision and receiving the stamp of an accredited university is often an unreliable source for facts. Is it possible that your experience is more salient in specific fields of research? I can't imagine many of these "PhD mills" in the humanities and social sciences, but maybe my experience isn't the more common one. The idea that oversight comes in the form of professorial "whims" seems pretty cynical to me. Of course the scope of the project isn't in question here the reliability of the finished product is. You are convincing me, even if only by example, that there is a lot of variation across programs and disciplines which would make a generalized statement here more problematic. Yet what I'm not convinced of is that the difference in "quality" between universities relates directly to the reliability of information within dissertations. That was my initial concern when it was suggested that the fact that most dissertations are not published speaks to their unreliability when I don't see any evidence of this. When advised on how to write a dissertation that would have a better chance of being accepted for publication I've never come across any advice about reliability and/or the accuracy of information. I'm not sure good data exists on the accuracy of information from books published by academic presses either. Perhaps no one needs to use a dissertation as a reference anyway if we all agree that novel/contentious claims should be avoided from these sources leaving factual information which can always be sourced elsewhere. Protonk I do not doubt that your appraisal is entirely sincere and based upon good experience in this area, and I didn't mean to suggest otherwise with my "anecdotal" comment. Cheers.PelleSmith (talk) 13:08, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
I'll attempt something of a reply here, but I think we agree on some narrow issues. One of the biggest issues with WP:RS is that we have three distinct connotations for the word source. We may mean source in the manner that RS means it: a publisher of information. We may mean source to be the author of that piece of information. And we may mean source to be the actual font of data that the piece compiles. In the case (broadly) of PhD dissertations I still think that they are not a homogeneously reliable source in the first definition. If there is a wide disparity in dissertation quality and appropriateness of topic selection then I am hesitant to leave the judgment of the accuracy and acceptability of a dissertation to the editor alone. I kind of answered this below, but I feel that there is a big continuum of PhD quality from top flight universities to diploma mills. there are plenty of PhD granting universities who have competitive admissions, comprehensive examinations and difficult coursework but which may (or may not) not undertake strong control in the selection of topics and coverage of material (I concede the point that fact checking is largely done). I also want to revisit my "whim" comment. I just threw that out there. I didn't mean it literally and I should have clarified. Topics are agreed upon (usually where I have seen) between student and professor but my point was that there are many more students than professors and the assent of the major professor to a student topic isn't the same thing as an editor pushing for a story and selecting among different stories (Mostly because students eventually write the dissertation where reporters or columnists may--for some papers--write several stories before one is selected). Remember, back to the "sources" issues. the problem at hand isn't the "reliability" of the information but of the PhD dissertation process. That is the important element. We may accept the NYT as a reliable source even though they messed up and published the WMD business in 2002-2003. This is a rough cut from a blunt tool, but it seems to work reasonably well. I just feel that if we apply it to dissertations we end up with the answer that usually it is impossible to tell if the dissertation process is reliable school to school. Protonk (talk) 16:10, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

(out indent, EC)

  • OK, this is verging upon the bizarre. Let's go one thing at a time.
  • First, I don't agree that universities have incentives to maintain doctoral dissertation quality. That incentive is transferred largely to the student. In most fields there is a pressure to produce something worthy of publication in order to seek academic employment. In that case it is in the interests of the student to produce something of quality. For students who will not seek academic employment the university has no real incentive to control quality. Efficacy of graduate programs are judged based on the employment prospects of graduates and time to graduate, not the quality of dissertations.
  • Believe me, there are strong incentives to maintain doctoral dissertation quality. Schools do not want to be known as a paper mill. Faculty members don't want to be known for having shoddy PhD students. Graduate programs are judged almost solely on how good of students they produce. US News rankings have been making a bigger deal about number of graduates, but for departments it is peer-review that matters. And believe me, quality of PhD students (which is judged mostly by what they've done/written) is the number one issue there.
  • I'm not saying that they don't. Schools are certainly rated on the success of their graduates and this gives the university a strong incentive to get them to write publishable dissertations. What I'm saying is that there is a difference between being accountable for inaccuracies, bias and topic selection and being accountable for student outcomes. And it isn't just diploma mill vs. not. There is a pretty big leap from (say) the University of Chicago and the University of Phoenix. Most top of the field schools will produce dissertations that go on to be published in some form. Schools which don't (a big chunk of them) still have rigorous and comprehensive PhD programs, but we can no longer say that a high percentage of their students' dissertations go on to be published. It is those schools which we are concerned about. Not harvard.
  • Second, we have no information on individual colleges and departments. While we can (and often do) judge sources bu their public face--tabloids are rebuked as tabloids, journals which practice rigorous fact checking are noted--we have no real way to determine this for the thousands of PhD programs in the United States alone. We can spot obvious diploma mills but review of these programs from a fact checking and editorial control standpoing is spotty at best.
  • At the very least the same is true of newspapers and magazines in the US. Which local papers are "reliable?" There are a lot more local papers than PhD granting institutions. And we have a high degree of certainty that more time was spent on the thesis than a news article. Both in the writing and the editing.
  • Third, we still don't have strong editorial control. While I agree that selection of a topic and scope are subject to the whim of the major professor, there is no guarantee that this results in some meaningful selection.
  • And somehow you think that the selection of topic and scope by a news reporter and her editor results in meaningful selection? Why one and not the other?
  • Yes of course I do. Newspapers have a limit to their possible coverage, the number of pages they can print. They also have meaningful tradeoffs in assigning a reporter to issue A rather than B, or C or D. The only thing that limits topic selection for dissertations is grad students. We can cherry pick bad topics just as easily as we can cherry pick good topics.
I think you are holding one type of publication to a higher standard than the others. The work is reviewed by a committee (by definition) and directed by an expert in the field. If a Thesis claimed that "Bob Jones was a murder" I'd certainly be hesitant to take that as fact just because someone wrote it in a thesis. But I'd be hesitant to take that as fact just because the NYT said it. That "discovering the optimal scheduling algorithm for certain caches is NP-hard" is something I'd believe from a thesis, esp. as it would have evidence therein to back it up. In that case, there's also a journal paper (which should be cited instead). Hobit (talk) 13:20, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
  • I'm going to respond inline just to make things worse. :) Like I said above, my suggested answer isn't never but "often, no". I don't see that as descending into silly season. The field that I dabble in has plenty of MA and PhD theses which push the discipline forward, mostly because it is so new. I wouldn't have a problem citing one in a paper but I probably wouldn't (even if I knew the research) cite it in wikipedia. Protonk (talk) 15:40, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Example of an unacceptable PhD. I just searched googlebooks for sources and found a full-text rendition of a PhD thesis that looked like a thoroughly researched, spot-on source on topic... until I found that it cites guess what - wikipedia - and on a gregarious scale (go figure). At page 387 the author even argues that wikipedia has more or less quality than paper encyclopedias. Why in the world a thesis needs to cite encyclopedias? beats me. This one is from Oslo School of Engineering and Design. NVO (talk) 15:57, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm sure you can find more, even in the US or the UK. This is sad, but true. Doug Weller (talk) 16:18, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Gibnews.net and User:Gibnews

Resolved. No, this is not a reliable source. Protonk (talk) 13:54, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

I would appreciate a second opinion on this issue. User:Gibnews runs a Gibraltar-based news website [2], which he has used as reference or primary source in various occasions in the past. At the moment, there is an ongoing content dispute centered on this particular issue, whether he should be allowed to use this website as a reliable source, which he uses to back up his edits (many of the published pieces seem to be official press releases from Gibraltar local government). Link to dispute here. Regards, --Asteriontalk 09:35, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

No way, jose. Not a reliable source at all. check their about us link. they basically say they will run uneditied releases from anyone. Protonk (talk) 22:27, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
In addition, I feel very uncomfortable about the conflict of interest this represents. An editor citing his own website as a source? What is to stop him adding <RANDOM> to his website and then citing that on Wikipedia as evidence of a claim? The website would surely count as a self-published source and wouldn't be usable as a reliable source anyway. -- ChrisO (talk) 22:33, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Chronicles from the 17th and 18th century

Are chronicles from the 1600s and 1700s reliable sources? In my opinion, even quoting from such an old source directly (i.e. without a secondary source acting as a filter) is original research, because words change their meaning over such long periods of time (either by losing some of their original meanings or being enriched with new meanings the original author never intended to use). Of course, if the meaning is undisputed within the community then that isn't a problem, but what's the proper course of action if the meaning is disputed? --Gutza T T+ 13:19, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

In most cases I would agree, though there may be exceptions. I would, e.g. tend to accept (attributed!) excerpts from James Cook's log books or Joseph Banks' reports to show their contemporary impressions. I would not allow them as sources for statements of facts in the editorial voice, of course. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 14:03, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
There's nothing wrong with describing what they say without any original interpretation, especially when the source is available online (those works are obviously PD) and anyone can verify if the wording in the article is conformal or is just the personal view of an editor.Xasha (talk) 19:04, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
The problem as I see it is that with such old sources one needs to be a historian to determine what the chronicler actually meant, specifically because of the way a language evolves over time. In my opinion simply copying information from such an old source can be misleading as a result. In other words, I think that such old sources require interpretation by a contemporary specialist, especially regarding controversial matters. --Gutza T T+ 19:13, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
While that can be a problem, it's not substantially different from many modern sources. To read a modern research paper, you also need to be a specialist and be aware of nuances of meaning in words that have more vague or even quite different colloquial interpretations (see e.g. metal in astronomical contexts, or |resolution in formal logic). However, mindset and context are often very different for older sources - that's why I picked Cook and Banks as examples that essentially have a modern scientific mindset, even if they have a quite different set of cultural baggage. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 19:32, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
When the author and athe age are explicitely named in the text (and not hidden in a ref tag) the reader understands it is just the opinion of that particular author, and not necessarily the truth. So it's perfectly acceptable.Xasha (talk) 19:39, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
No, it is not acceptable per WP:PRIMARY (only make descriptive claims about the information found in the primary source, the accuracy and applicability of which is easily verifiable by any reasonable, educated person without specialist knowledge) -- you cannot ask the average reader to be familiar with the mindset of a chronicler in the 17th century. --Gutza T T+ 19:42, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
But it requires an educated person, thus someone with a fair knowledge of culture, not just some punk from the street.Xasha (talk) 19:48, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
I'm sorry, not every educated person is a historian. --Gutza T T+ 19:52, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
The answer to this is that while such documents are considered reliable sources... their utility as sources, and the appropriateness of citing them or quoting them in a specific article is limited. Such sources are considered "Primary Sources"... and as such (while we can use them) we must use them with great caution. We have to be particularly careful not to misuse them in ways that would violate wikipedia's WP:No original research (WP:NOR) policy. It really depends on how you use them and what you are trying to use them for. Blueboar (talk) 23:35, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Follow-up question: if the quotation of such a source is disputed by other editors, is it reasonable to seek consensus by eliminating said source in favor of a secondary source, or is that an unacceptable proposal? --Gutza T T+ 23:42, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

I doubt that this can be properly answered in the abstract. It's obvious that you have a specific source in mind, the meaning of which is disputed. Is it in English? Are the disputed terms translated - in which case some interpretation may be involved - or presented as written? Paul B (talk) 23:51, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
You're right, I do have a specific source -- and dispute -- in mind; and yes, it is obviously disputed. While the source is not in English, one can find enough references and discussions to make up their own minds, but unfortunately there's a lot to read. However, if you're willing to investigate, by all means -- see here: Talk:History of the Moldovan language#Cantemir, Ureche et al (other sections within that talk page might also be relevant). --Gutza T T+ 00:11, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
Right, so this is essentially about Moldovan nationalist claims. Someone is claiming that 17th century references to the "Moldovan language" imply that "Moldovan" was recognised as a distinct or separate language? That certainly seems to fall into the WP:SYN, since these chronicles seem to be making no claims about linguistic separatness from Romanian, just describing the language people speak in Moldova. Paul B (talk) 14:07, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
I agree. It can be argued however that the person inserting those sources is not breaking WP:SYNTH because the article does not contain any such claims -- it simply quotes the chronicle, and the chronicle does indeed contain the words "Moldovan language". And in my opinion that's the debatable point -- can you quote a chronicle as a reliable source in this context, given that the very word "language" has evolved significantly over the past 400 years, as to include a sense of separateness that the original author never intended? Mind you, my claim that you cannot requires interpretation of the chronicle, which contradicts the letter of WP:PRIMARY -- but I posit that given the age of the source and the dispute around that specific wording it is reasonable to reject that specific primary source and require a secondary, modern source to provide the proper interpretation (and, incidentally, the reliable sources all agree there was indeed no intent on the part of the chronicler to imply such a separateness from Romanian). --Gutza T T+ 10:44, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

It all depends on availability of reliable academic interpretations. Once you dig into a relatively small academic field with plenty of nationalist agendas, they become a dying breed. However, the 1600s-1700s sources are too recent to cause any misunderstanding to present-day native Romanians, just like an average Englishman can keep the track of a Hamlet play. Plus, Costin was not a monk so his mind was not as rigidly indoctrinated as that of a monastic chrohist and he apparently did not insert biblical riddles in the text (the first thing to remember reading older Eastern European chronicles). To me, translation/interpretation of his statement is not a problem at all. It's all about presentation - whether it's a one man's opinion or something larger. I would take his words for what they are worth: that, in Costin's opinion at the time of writing ... then follow his point. Nothing more. NVO (talk) 22:39, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

p.s. I think that naming a 17th-century politician and pamphletist a chronist is itself a cause of conflict. Chronist invokes medieval standards of passing (copying, altering, synthesizing) knowledge of past centuries through compiled chronicles; a 17th century text is quite different, it's an original work. NVO (talk) 22:46, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

I tried to be as succinct as I could, but I think that has affected the presentation -- it seems I have to explain the matters in more depth. The word language, in its modern interpretation, intrinsically implies a sense of identity -- when you say "the Klingon language" you uniquely identify that language, and do not expect that specific language to be called any alternative names (see for example the lack of articles on the Austrian language, American language etc). This interpretation is relatively recent, and it has come about roughly at the same time as the concept of a nation state (late 18th century, compare Nation state#History and origins and History of linguistics#Historical linguistics). By contrast, in the 17th century and early 18th century (when there was no notion of a nation state, and no political load associated with linguistics, let alone any serious claim on Moldavian's distinctiveness from Romanian), "language" simply meant "the way we speak over here", without any political, national or ethnic load -- it could translate to modern "language", "dialect", "speech", "accent" or "variety" just the same. As such, chroniclers like Dimitrie Cantemir write about the Moldovan language in one chronicle, and then in another they explicitly say there is no such thing as a Moldovan language, since Moldavians speak Romanian -- they don't see any contradiction in that, and feel no need to explain things in any detail (Miron Costin specifically makes the same point explicitly; incidentally, historians agree that it was Cantemir who reiterated Costin's statement when he said Moldavians spoke Romanian).
Of course, you can dismiss all of the above as my original research -- but the academic interpretations all concur (actually, proper academic papers don't even discuss the matter, they simply include Costin, Cantemir and Ureche as sources when discussing Romanian)*. In this context, I don't think it's fair to give the modern reader a false impression by quoting Costin with "at the time of writing, the Moldovan language was this and that", because it's not reasonable to expect the average modern reader, educated as she may be, to be aware of the intricacies of how the concept of language has evolved since the 1600s.
Regarding chronist, please see chronicler; cross-reference Miron Costin, Dimitrie Cantemir (specifically "Hronicul vechimii a romano-moldo-valahilor – aprox. "Chronicle of the durability of Romans-Moldavians-Wallachians""), and Grigore Ureche. --Gutza T T+ 23:29, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
----
*) For clarity, I don't have academic sources to support my theory regarding the synchronicity between modern linguistics and the appearance of the concept of a nation state -- while I don't have sources for that assertion you can verify the synchronicity in the articles provided. --Gutza T T+ 00:12, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
Unfortunately, wikipedia has no text on chronicler (the man) and chronicles as art/craft/tradition/ideology (you name it), just a bare definition followed by an arbitrary list. One big void. As for your opening paragraph, I am surprised that the obvious subject (changing sense of language and national identity over time) needs presentation at all. Those who attended middle school should remember it; those who press their agenda won't listen. NVO (talk) 00:37, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
If I understand your reply correctly, you're basically saying "I agree there was no such thing as a distinct Moldavian language in the 17th century, and the chronicler/politician/pamphletist certainly doesn't suggest that, but the average reader is already aware of that". If my understanding is correct, why do we need to include that information in an article entitled "History of the Moldovan language" -- is the title in today's Wikipedia meant to reflect realities in the 17th century? --Gutza T T+ 01:02, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
1. No, you did not understand it correctly. 2. If the article is titled History... then historical references presenting the changes in attitudes towards the subject are relevant. The title does not reflect anything, it's the content that reports historical views and (ideally) modern interpretation of those views (i.e. how the understanding of language in 17th century relates to contemporary understanding). 3. Whether the subject exists and whether it warrants a separate History.. is a whole different story, but the articles are already there. NVO (talk) 02:44, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
What if there are no modern sources on the topic? Is the article's existence reason enough to warrant its continued existence? Can I create History of the Australian language and defend its existence by its prior existence? --Gutza T T+ 03:04, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
Hello, Gutza. The issue you are attempting to resolve would greatly benefit from secondary sources which confirm that historical Moldavian spoken in the principality of Moldavia was Romanian by just another name, while the (Soviet) creation of Moldovan and its current use to further a political agenda by insisting it is, at once, a language and ethnic group distinct from Romanian and, at the same time, a language and ethnic group continuous over six centuries with Moldavia/Moldavian (and note both cannot be true if historical Moldavian is simply Romanian which it is) is a completely different animal. —PētersV (talk) 02:25, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

IMDb

I'm getting a little tired of this one. We have a whole slew of templates for citing IMDb, and IMDb is cited, probably over a million times, in Wikipedia. Yet I keep running into people asserting (twice with regard to Rudolf Wanderone, for example, once on its talk page, once on its 2nd peer review page) that IMDb isn't a reliable source for Wikipedia purposes. This really needs to get settled. Maybe have a referendum on this issue (WP:RFC?), or whatever it takes, and either declare it a non-reliable source categorically or clarify the guideline that sites like this can be reliable for some things (titles, release dates, other basic information) and non-reliable for others (movie trivia, mostly contributed by readers). If it is deemed wholly unreliable, then we need to immediately TfD the IMDb templates and set up bots to remove (or, as with deleted images, comment out) IMDb citations that use them. This hemming and hawing on the issue, and ensuing general confusion, is making the WP:PR, WP:GA and WP:FA/WP:FL processes much more painful than is necessary. — SMcCandlish talk cont ‹(-¿-)› 01:28, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

  • I think an RFC is a good route to take. I think that there are some serious issues with sourcing imbd. We have a general consensus here on the noticeboards that the bare facts of a movie (but not an actor) can be sourced to imdb most of the time, but that anything beyond that is usually user-driven and so not acceptable. This consensus here doesn't at all translate to general practice which has been (probably not a million times, but thousands of times) to cite imdb for the details it provides on everything except trivia, quotes, errors and obvious fan generated stuff. I don't have a strong enough opinion to force the issue (mass TfD is probably not the right route), but it should be discussed. At the very least if there is some wide community consensus on the issue I can make an FAQ for this page listing past links to it. Maybe I should do that anyways. Protonk (talk) 03:10, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
According to IMDB itself, some guy named Sundar Chakravarthy managed to insert into Julianne Moore's IMDB biography that she was married to him from 1983-1985... AnonMoos (talk) 14:09, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
  • I'm a regular at WP:BLP/N and would say that I don't think there is any dispute that IMDb isn't a suitable source when it comes to LP. I would go further and say it isn't suitable for anything about people period. Beyond that I can't say Nil Einne (talk) 18:23, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Indo-Aryan loanwords in Tamil

I am developing this article and I use an authoritative and comprehensive published lexicon to cite the existence of borrowed words in Tamil language

Some people who dont accept the lexicon's authority are threatening to delete my work and have extensively tagged my article with "citation necessary" tags. Kindly help. ­ Kris (talk) 18:47, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

I think they're "threatening" deletion on the grounds that Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not a dictionary and the article is likely to be of interest to scant few English speakers. It also looks like the article might contain a lot of original research, another reason for deletion. Yilloslime (t) 20:57, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
I can't comment on sourcing issues, but from Lists of etymologies and Category:Lists of words it seems this sort of list is acceptable. At the very least, if it's not it's a wider issue Nil Einne (talk) 18:29, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

ETC magazine

How should ETC [www.etc.se] be used in articles? I can hardly find any info on the magazine, but it seems to be a partisan publication of the socialist left in Sweden. Troopedagain (talk) 02:27, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

I can't tell, but maybe someone at Wikipedia:WikiProject Sweden can help. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 03:16, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
ETC is definately left of centre, but is not a party organ or a fringe publication. --Soman (talk) 19:57, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Entertainment Online

Would articles that appear on E! Online be considered reliable for news about celebrity and reality TV stars? BaldPete (talk) 17:42, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

  • I would consider Eonline.com, the web site of the E! network, a reasonably reliable source for celebrity/reality TV star news. It is associated with a mainstream cable television network owned by Comcast. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 06:16, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Is a bio in a conference program a reliable and independent source?

Resolved. Only really a source in terms of WP:SPS. Claims regarding notability or the importance of the subject probably shouldn't be cited to a conference biography. Protonk (talk) 13:52, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

There is some disagreement at Kaveh Farrokh on whether a bio published in a conference program constitutes a reliable independent source. An edit I made in which I called this an "autobiography" was reverted as being "WP:OR, because the bio does not mention by whom it was written. However, nobody will tell you that you're doing OR if you call a bio posted on someones own webpage an autobio, even if the author isn't mentioned. I don't know of any conference (and certainly not one of modest means such as this one seems to be - their website does not even have its own URL, but is hosted on a university server) that will research someone's bio themselves. Conference organizers invariably ask participants to send a short bio themselves (which they then may or may not edit, for instance to fit a page). In the present case, the item cited from this bio constitutes a high school award, hardly something that a conference organizer would go to great lengths to uncover (disregarding the fact that I have not been able to find this award anywhere, except on the original conference site and in Wikipedia and mirror sites). Anyway, the case boils down to whether a biography published in a conference program is a reliable independent source for anything. I would appreciate the opinion of the community on this. Thanks. --Crusio (talk) 21:59, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

These bios appear to be user-submitted, so they are clearly not independent. One of them is even written in the first person. EdJohnston (talk) 22:06, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
  • (ec)I think we consider "publisher bios" as reliable, so why not conference bios? Publisher "bios" are usually written by the agent or the publisher (in concert with the author). Those conference bios are normally written by the participant, but I don't really see the problem. It isn't enough of a source to confer notability, but the facts mentioned on there shouldn't be rejected out of hand unless we have some reason to believe that the conference doesn't police its bios. Protonk (talk) 22:08, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment: I think publishers (and agents) will do some checking, I don't know any conference organizers doing this, so only something glaringly untrue would be caught. BTW, part of the disagreement is about terming this an "autobiography" instead of a biography". --Crusio (talk) 22:20, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
  • Followup question: Do you mean "good enough to use in an article" or "good enough to base an article on"? Protonk (talk) 22:09, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
  • It's being used to source a highschool award and to support the claim that the subject speaks 4 different languages and has a working understanding of 6 others (4 living and 2 dead). None of this is very important or notable, of course, but the article is weak on notability anyway. --Crusio (talk) 22:17, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
  • That high school award should be removed, anyway, as it seems kind of hagiographic to list it. As far as the cite....eh. WP:SPS exemptions apply here. We really shouldn't be using this biography to source the 4 languages claim, but it isn't outside the realm of the guidelines to do so. Protonk (talk) 22:23, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
  • I agree completely, but other editors keep reversing me when I remove it, even though I have tried to explain on the article's talkpage that including it is kind of disparaging. --Crusio (talk) 22:28, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
  • (edit conflict)PS: In the present case, this bio has been shown to contain some fluff, such as "contributed articles to internationally recognized academic journals such as the International Journal of the Sociology of Language", which turns out to be a single 1-page book review. --Crusio (talk) 22:27, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
I'm also involved in the article and raised the issue on the article's talk page earlier. Anyone who has attended any such conferences (I have) knows that participants submit their own information. And as Crusio says just above, the subject took a one page review and turned it into a claim for journals and articles plural. I believe the award bit (it was removed but replaced, someone thinks it makes him look important I guess), but who knows about the languages? Doug Weller (talk) 05:54, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

The_Star_(Malaysia)

Resolved.

Is this considered a reliable enough source for Wikipedia's purposes. NanohaA'sYuriTalk, My master 02:47, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Foreign sources are hard. Can you summarize what you think of it? Why it should be, or should not be considered reiiable? - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 02:50, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
What is a 'foreign source' really? --Soman (talk) 17:54, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
Mainstream newspaper therefore generally reliable. Itsmejudith (talk) 19:47, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
The Star is pretty big over there. I'd equate it to a paper like , say, the Dallas Morning News. Not a worldwide paper, but certainly not the Four-Streets-With-A-Stoplight Gazettte. -- Logical Premise Ergo? 13:47, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
It's reliable then. I'll mark this as resolved. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 14:56, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

The Electronic Intifada

Can The Electronic Intifada be used as a reliable source? I am working on Cinema of Palestine, and there is one editor there that disagree:[3] I cannot see that EI has been discussed here before, (see: Wikipedia:WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration/Links to reliable sources discussions), therefor I would very much like to hear your opinion. Regards, Huldra (talk) 17:12, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

It's a marginal case. In this case you want to use it for a statement about cinema, so it is not so controversial as it might be in other circumstances. And you also have a named author who would seem to be an authority in the field. So I think on balance the statement could be left in and attributed to the author. Itsmejudith (talk) 19:54, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
Strongly reluctant though of course we must be to accept anything with a "Palestinian POV", the Electronic Intifada (and/or its founder, Ali Abunimah) has started to be quoted regularly in impeccably "mainstream" and yes even Israeli and Zionist sources.
They claim to have been favourably reviewed in several "mainstream" sources, including the center-right Jerusalem Post. An unfavourable review at the Jewish Telegraph Agency wire still called it a useful resource for understanding Palestinian opinions.
The Financial Times apparently said: "The Electronic Intifada is a highly professional site, apparently designed and run from the UK, which blends links to newspaper stories, in-depth comment on the way the conflict is being presented in the media, the Live From Palestine "diary project" and snippets such as a running total of Palestinian and Israeli deaths. The design is clean, using interesting fonts and images, and the material is up to date. On Tuesday morning there were already links to a dozen articles covering the Gaza City attack"
An ITV program called "The Web Review" supposedly gave EI a 10/10 rating "In form this site is a slick newsroom, rational and cross-referenced. But electronicintifada is also a democratic bombshell, a fascinating look between and behind the lines. [...] It is so incredibly professional. It is so slick. It is so well done. It kinda blew me away, really. [...] An unashamedly, very well deserved 10 out of 10." PRtalk 19:12, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Zochrot, or "Nakba in Hebrew"

Is the NGO Zochrot, or "Nakba in Hebrew" a RS? From their web-site: "Zochrot ["Remembering"] is a group of Israeli citizens working to raise awareness of the Nakba, the Palestinian catastrophe of 1948". I encounter edits like this:[4], [5]. Again; this NGO has never AFAIK been discussed here before, so I would very much like to hear your opinion. Regards, Huldra (talk) 17:12, 30 September 2008 (UTC)