Wikipedia:ORN
This article is licensed under the GNU Free Documentation License. It uses material from the Wikipedia article "Wikipedia:ORN".

This notice board is provided so that editors can ask for advice about material that might be original research (OR) or original synthesis.

The policy that governs the issue of original research is Wikipedia: No original research (WP:NOR). It says: "Wikipedia does not publish original research or original thought. This includes unpublished facts, arguments, speculation, and ideas; and any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position." For questions about the policy itself, please go to WT:NOR.

Please post new topics in a new section. When a thread is closed, you can tag it with {{resolved}}.

Archives

1, 2, 3

Outernet and Odyssey

The third book in the Outernet series of humorous science fiction books for children, by Steve Barlow and Steve Skidmore, is titled "Odyssey". One of the characters explicitly references Odyssey of Homer, and is inspired by it to disguise himself and his friends the same way Odysseus and his crew disguised themselves by hiding under sheep. It is clear, then, that the plot deliberately pays homage to that work.

However, there are more elements of the plot that allude to the Odyssey. The protagonists' aim is to seek an blind alien named Tiresias, presumably named after the mythological prophet of the same name. A race of aliens gives them sweetening foods and wipes their memory (cf Lotophagi), a beautiful song leads them into a trap, a monster called a silla attacks them, and they eventually fall into a black hole (cf Charybdis) after escaping the silla. To me, these seem like humorous but obvious allusions to the Odyssey, and perhaps worthy of mention in the Outernet article. But would that be considered original research, as it's not explicitly stated? (Or appropriate allusions, and I'm just being dense?)

Thank you very much. --Lkjhgfdsa (talk) 00:43, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

That would be a descriptive claim about the contents of a primary source whose applicability is easily verifiable and obvious to any reasonable, educated person without the need for specialized knowledge — and therefore not OR. Go to it :D Mr. IP 《Defender of Open Editing》 17:15, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Music leaks

Do music leaks warrant original research if no significant source has provided coverage? dude527 (talk) 14:31, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

If no significant reliable source has provided coverage, neither should we. Vassyana (talk) 09:10, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Ahmad ibn Ibrihim al-Ghazi

Large chunks of the Ahmad ibn Ibrihim al-Ghazi article appear to be the product of original research. Specifically, the ethnicity section speculates on the possible ethnic background of Ahmad without any of the sources it cites once directly and explicitly mentioning his ethnicity. This section of the article also contradicts the consensus among most scholars and historians that al-Ghazi was a Somali,^{[1][2][3][4][5][6]} and according to Wiki policies, exceptional claims require exceptional sources.

Here are the offending passages:

His ethnicity is never explicitly mentioned in the Futuh al-Habasha of Sihab ad-Din Ahmad bin 'Abd al-Qader (otherwise known as 'Arab Faqih), the primary source for his conquests, possibly because it was not important or because the author assumed it was known to his readers. There are a number of clues in the Futuh worth considering.

• Many of Imam Ahmdad's relatives are identified. His sister Fardusa is said to have been married to the chieftain Mattan, who is identified as a Somali unlike her.^[7] Imam Ahmdad's brother was Muhammad bin Ibrahim, chieftain of the tribes of Shewa and Hargaya before joining the Imam against Ethiopia.^{[8] [9]} He had a cousin Muhammad bin Ali, whose mother was the Imam's aunt; Muhammad was the Sultan of the Somali tribe of Zarba.^[10] Last is his cousin Emir Zeharbui Muhammad, of whose background the Futuh has little to say.^[11]
• The Futuh mentions one Ibrahim bin Ahmad as a ruler of the Adal Sultanate for three months, whose name suggests that he may be the Imam's father. This Ibrahim is described as one of the Belew and previously having been the ruler of the town of Hubat.^[12] The possible connection between the two is strengthened by the fact that Hubat is later mentioned as one of the power bases of Imam Ahmad (the other being Za'ka).^[13] Today Hubat (or Hubata) is located in the district of Haramaya/Alemaya, and Ulrich Braukamper has noted that the Belew name in the region has only survived amongst the Nole Oromo.^[14]
• Then there are numerous occasions where the Futuh supplies evidence for an argument from silence. There are numerous passages in the Futuh where Imam Ahmad and the Somali people are mentioned together, and never once does 'Arab Faqih mention the ethnic connection. Further, the Somali warriors are described as having fled during the Battle of Shimbra Kure; had the Imam been Somali, would the Futuh which otherwise praises the Imam at every turn, mention this embarrassing detail?^[15]
• So far these argue against the Imam being descended from Somali ancestors (although in any case there are undeniably Somali families who can claim to be his descendants). But in favor of Imam Ahmad's having been a Somali is the fact that, after disagreeing with Sultan Umar Din over the alms tax, he retired to live amongst the Somali.^[16]

References:

Please note how almost all of the above statements cite the Futuh source, which, by the article's own admission, never mentions Ahmad's ethnicity. The above statements literally piece together information from the Futuh and other sources to arrive at a conclusion that none of the aforementioned sources themselves reach i.e. synthesis.

Let me know what you think. Causteau (talk) 17:20, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

It's a fairly clear example of original research. It even deviates into obvious editorial analysis , with statements such as: "Then there are numerous occasions where the Futuh supplies evidence for an argument from silence. There are numerous passages in the Futuh where Imam Ahmad and the Somali people are mentioned together, and never once does 'Arab Faqih mention the ethnic connection. Further, the Somali warriors are described as having fled during the Battle of Shimbra Kure; had the Imam been Somali, would the Futuh which otherwise praises the Imam at every turn, mention this embarrassing detail?" Vassyana (talk) 09:14, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Just like I suspected. Thanks for the feedback, Causteau (talk) 21:55, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Needless to say, I beg to differ. First, I wish that I had been informed of this discussion at the time, since I would have been happy to explain this material & make any necessary changes. Next, I believe it is germane to point out that it is a point of Somali nationalistic ideology to assert that Imam Ahmad Gragn was a Somali; this is why I felt it necessary to use the primary source, rather than to compile a list all of the authorities who dissent from this belief. However, I am puzzled at how this passage is considered "original research" -- as far as I can see it is simply the paraphrasing of verifiable details from a primary source, with the minimum of interpretation possible. As for the "editorial analysis", I believe this falls under the category of an obvious logical inference, that is argument from silence; not to mention this possible reading of the source would be, I feel, dishonest. (As I pointed out on the Talk page, this form of argument is the weakest that can be made -- which is why I linked to the article. Lastly, the Imam's possible non-Somali origins is not a novel or original conclusion: as the Talk page mentions, both Morin & Lewis have suggested other ethnic origins for this person. -- llywrch (talk) 18:16, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

It is not "Somali nationalistic ideology" to assert that Imam Ahmad was Somali: It is the consensus among most scholars to assert that he was Somali, as clearly indicated by the not one, not two, but six different sources cited above (note the non-Somali last names: Groves, Chatterji, Almeida, Castanhoso). I could easily produce more if space allowed it. Again, the entire passage above is original research because it speculates on the possible ethnic background of Ahmad without any of the sources it cites once directly and explicitly mentioning his ethnicity. The edit even admits point blank that "his ethnicity is never explicitly mentioned in the Futuh al-Habasha" -- it doesn't get more blatant than that. Causteau (talk) 20:13, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Your list of experts is misleading: first compiling a list of experts is not the same as counting votes -- although listing 3 or 4 can be used to indicate what the majority opinion could be. I could compile a list of authorities who point out that his ethnic background is not known. For example Almeida is a 17th century author, who did not have direct knowledge of the Imam. While Castanhoso is another primary source, the citation in the article is to the introductory pages -- which is written by R.S. Whiteway, who writes, "Nothing is said to his nationality. He was certainly not an Arab: probably he was a Somali, for we find him closely connected with many who were Somalis." Castanhoso, in his own words, calls Ahmad Gragn "a Moor" & "the King of Zeila", which are clearly in error. The title of Groves' book is The Planting of Christianity in Africa, which suggests that he might not write authoritatively about the Imam's nationality. This leaves only Chatterji (to whom I would add the professor Said S. Samatar, who was born in Somalia) arguing that Ahmad Gragn was a Somali. -- llywrch (talk) 02:57, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Kindly do not interpret for reading parties what the sources say; that's the exact sort of thing that started this whole mess in the first place. Here's what the above references actually state, and with no spin attached:

1)Chatterji: A Somali chief of Adel, a Muslim state on the Gulf of Aden, named Ahmed ibn Ibrahim by using the new weapon completely overthrew the Ethiopian kingdom...

2)Beckingham: Ahmad ibn Ibrahim al Ghazi, called 'the left-handed' by the Somali, (gran in Amharic), was a Somali in the service of the ruler of Zeila.

3)Groves: The leader was a Somali chief, Ahmad ibn Muhammad Gran, Muslim ruler of a border state, who with great energy and resource pressed home the invasion of Abyssinia.

4)Castanhoso: He was certainly not an Arab: probably he was a Somali, for we find him closely connected with many who were Somalis.

5)Langer: Ethiopia was overrun by the Moslem Somali chief, Ahmed Gran, who used firearms.

Please note that the I.M. Lewis source above which asserts that Imam Ahmad was a Somali was, in fact, submitted by none other than Llywrch himself almost exactly two years ago. As for the Samatar gentleman, he indeed represents the lone Somali scholar in the list of references in the article proper. However, what Llywrch yet again fails to mention is that it was he (not me) that listed Samatar among the sources. I therefore see no point in why he felt the need to mention that Samatar was "born in Somalia" -- how is Samatar's being Somali all of a sudden a problem now when it wasn't before? Causteau (talk) 18:44, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

I believe it falls under the prohibition on original research, because it goes beyond reporting the content of the source and does so in a fashion intended to put forward an argument (both of which are clear identifying characteristics of NOR violations IMO). Vassyana (talk) 19:23, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

PS to the above: I think it is relevant to point out what Causteau did with Vassyana's opinion: he deleted most of the passagediff, & made it appear that it was the unanimous opinion of the relevant experts that the Imam was of an Somali ethnic background -- despite that there are experts (who are, by no means, fringe opinions) with dissenting views. Also note this set of edits where he removed all mention of dissenting opinions concerning the Imam's ethnic origins. He even removed the passage that states the major primary source (the Futuh al-Habasha) omits all mention of his ethnicity, a fact that is pointed out in numerous secondary sources. Vassyana, would you consider these edits to be the proper way to not only to correct any possible original research, but to achieve NPOV in this article? -- llywrch (talk) 19:09, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

I do not believe that is the correct way to address the issue at all (the fashion the other editor chose). Rather, it would be best to include the dissenting opinions using reliable scholarly sources, since they exist and are relatively easy to access. Vassyana (talk) 19:23, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

I have no problem with the inclusion of dissenting opinions regarding the ethnicity of Imam Ahmad provided that they are directly and explicity supported by reliable sources, rather than being the product of one editor's speculations on what -- by his own admission -- is not once mentioned in the source he does actually cite. Causteau (talk) 20:13, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Vassyana--find the best quality secondary modern two sources on each side--and cite them, including a correct in context one sentence wquote either in the text or part or the footnote.. DGG (talk) 20:34, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Sounds reasonable enough. Causteau (talk) 20:55, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

In that case, when I am able to gain access to my books (I am currently attending a funeral some 2400 miles away) I will provide a more full recounting of the authorities who point out that his nationality is not known, despite the claims of Somalis. -- llywrch (talk) 02:57, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Then I suppose the scholars Nikshoy C. Chatterji, I.M. Lewis, Manuel de Almeida, Charles Pelham Groves, Miguel de Castanhoso, and William Leonard Langer cited in the footnotes above are all Somali, huh? Llywrch's consistent attempts at insinuating that Imam Ahmad was only Somali in the minds of Somalis is beyond laughable, since the overwhelming majority of the literature unreservedly identifies the man as such. Even Llywrch's Ethiopian pal Yom himself admitted as much when the latter inserted the following line into the article way back in June of 2006: Imam Ahmad has traditionally sometimes been interpreted as being an Arab in Ethiopia, though he is more often represented as Somali. Note that that line lasted a good two years without Llywrch, in his many repeat visits to the page, once feeling the need to remove or even so much as modify it. I think that, in and of itself, is very telling. Moreover, historical Christian Portuguese sources that actually fought against the Muslim Imam Ahmad also identify him as Somali: "In Portuguese sources he is called King of Adal and Emir of Zeila, and they conjecture that he was Somali" -- from Ethiopia Through Russian Eyes: Country in Transition, 1896-1898 by Alexander Bulatovich. But oh yeah; Mr. Bulatovich's testimony, like apparently that of the bulk of other scholars out there, doesn't count either since he too -- as his last name and the title of his book clearly indicate -- is Somali *eye roll*. Causteau (talk) 00:11, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Thought you folks would like to know that on August 4th, Llywrch solicited input from another regular visitor to this noticeboard regarding the discussion we are presently having. Here is the question Llywrch asked and the responses he received:

Someguy, I noticed that you frequently comment on questions in WP:NOR/N. Would you kindly take a look at the thread Ahmad ibn Ibrihim al-Ghazi, & offer your opinion? Thanks. -- llywrch (talk) 19:25, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Well the comments are already in and consensus appears to have formed, so my particpation in the discussion would probably not help much. But to place my opinion in case you still want it, the offending section violated OR because it contains an analysis that was not present in any of the cited sources. This is prohibited, in fact, by the nutshell itself: Articles may not contain any new analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position not clearly advanced by the sources. Someguy1221 (talk) 00:27, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

And if you want another opinion, I can say that it is very obvious OR, unless you can cite reliable sources that actually carry out the same analysis, in which case the issue might involve WP:UNDUE instead. --Philosophus ^T 00:58, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

I think a pattern is beginning to emerge here, wouldn't you say? Causteau (talk) 18:44, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Response

First, let me admit that I have responded to this matter with a clear amount of anger: insasmuch as I have contributed to Wikipedia for a number of years -- & receiving compliments for my work in the process -- I would hope that anyone who has a concern with one of my edits would begin with the assumption that I might have made a mistake either in my presentation, or in being out of date with the current version of a given policy. Such problems can be handled quite quickly with a discussion on the editors' Talk pages. Had Causteau raised his concerns with this passage, and explained what the problem was instead of brusquely telling me to RTFM, I would have been more than happy to have worked with him. More to the point, had he explained that I had assumed that it was obvious that the Imam's ethnic background was unclear, I would have removed the section in question until I could have completed the necessary research to show that, provably, there is doubt about this person's ethnic background amongst the experts.

Let me repeat this in brief: I know what is permitted on Wikipedia; Causteau objected to what I had written, but refused to help me understand what I had done wrong; only thru further discussion in this thread did I finally understand what the problem was, & said I would fix this.

And allow me to add that this incident made me angry enough that I seriously contemplated addressing one & all involved with some intemperate language, & definite misuse of my Admin privileges. I hope this was not what anyone intended to happen; but push anyone, no matter how experienced or patient, far enough, & they will decide "Fuck all of this shit; I don't need this hassle & pain when I'm trying hard to be a good guy. I'm outta here, & I'm going to make sure that people know why!"

End of my rant. Now to the reasoning behind my contributions to this article.

This is what the article said when I first encountered it. Note that an anonymous editor had provided an unsubstantiated claim to his ethnic background, as far as which sub-clan the Imam belonged to. Since my focus in Wikipedia is on Ethiopian topics, I obviously wanted to verify the details in this stub -- as well as improve on it. Due to difficulty in properly finding reliable sources for many details of Ethiopian (& Somali) history & culture, I tend to be permissive in what is added to these articles, & conservative in removing most of this information -- even though it is often unsourced. This is how it came to be that Imam Ahmad ibn Ibrihim al-Ghazi was asserted to be of Somali ethnicity.

About this time, I started to read Paul B. Henze's Layers of Time, wherein he wrote (rather arrogantly, IMHO): "Though some modern Somali nationalists have attempted to make him a national hero, the case is unconvincing. Somali tribes had not developed a sense of common identity in his time. they were still in the process of expanding into the territories they eventually occupied. Gragn's forces were composed of Afars, Hararis, Somalis and Arabs and were augmented by a few Turks.Their common language was Arabic and their sense of purpose lay in their loyalty to Islam." (p. 90) Not long after this, I encountered the passage from Whiteway's introduction to The Portuguese Expedition to Abyssinia in 1541-1543, which I quoted above. At this point I concluded that the Imam's ethnic background was in dispute -- although I did not take the time to thoroughly research the secondary literature to verify this conclusion.

Now I have to say that when it comes to Ethiopian history & culture, I am in the paradoxical situation where it is far easier to access the primary sources than the secondary ones, & that some of the secondary sources I have used are not reliable -- such as the work of E.A. Wallis Budge. I am constantly aware that I can at any moment slip, without knowing, into violating the original research policy. That is why a number of Ethiopia-related articles still remain stubs: I would rather wait to find a reliable secondary source to improve on a stub than to boldly work with primary sources. But there are times when I judge it safe to present the primary sources, with the minimum possible interpretation, for the reader to draw her or his own conclusions. The ethnicity of Imam Ahmad Gragn was one of these.

Lacking access to the secondary literature, I made the decision in this revision to provide a summary of the relevant information from the primary source: it is obvious that the Futuh al-Habashi does not provide the Imam's ethnic identity; I beleive this is even stated in a secondary source, which I have been unable to rediscover. If the Futuh is silent about Imam Ahmad Gragn's ethnicity, then the least unusual place to look for clues would be to look at his relatives.

I spent a large chunk of this Sunday afternoon examining reliable authorities for proof that this is a topic for which there is no consensus -- beyond, of course, the Somali nationalists Henze alludes to in the passage quoted. And the results surprised me.

First, there is the footnote in the article to the book Some Records of Ethiopia 1593-1646: Being Extracts from the History of High Ethiopia or Abassia By Manoel De Almeida, Together with Bahrey's History of the Galla, to give its complete title (which, IMHO, is unnecessarily verbose). On page 105, Almeida's text reads "the Moor Granh": while I may be again committing the crime Causteau accuses me of above -- interpreting for reading parties what the sources say -- I only think it is proper to point out that for Almeida & his contemporaries, "Moor" did not necessarily mean an inhabitant of North Africa, but a Moslem who was not of Arab or Persian ancestry; it does not prove or disprove that Almeida thought the Imam was a Somali. However in a footnote on that page, the editors/translators of that book (which is credited to both Beckingham & Huntingford) "Granh" is identified as "a Somali in the service of the ruler of Zeila". Now it can be shown that part of that statement is incorrect: Ahmad Gragn was not in anyone's service; he was a Moslem religious -- an Imam -- whom not only the Futuh, but numerous secondary sources (mentioned below) state appointed the ruler of the city of Harar, who was his puppet ruler. I regret to say this -- because in many other regards, both Beckingham & Huntingford are reliable sources -- but this does not make their claim that Ahmad Gragn was a Somali reliable.

Now for what truly surprised me: after reviewing eight reliable or authoritative sources, only one gave an ethnic origin for the Imam. These sources are as follows:

• Richard Pankhurst, who is considered by many as the most authoritative writer on Ethiopia, while consistently calling Ahmad Gragn an Imam, only in one work provides an ethnic identity for the Imam -- belonging to Adal -- but for the most part, in his 3 books -- Ethiopian Borderlands, The Ethiopians, & The Ethiopian Royal Chronicles -- he does not supply an ethnic identity.
• Edward Ullendorff, in his The Ethiopians, likewise identifies Ahmad Gragn as an Imam but is silent about his ethnic identity.
• Tadesse Tamrat, professor of Ethiopian history at Addis Ababa University, in his article for the Cambridge History of Africa, and his monograph Church and State in Ethiopia, consistently calls Ahmad Gragn an Imam but avoids giving him an ethnic identity, although in his Cambridge History chapter, "Ethiopia, the Red Sea, and the Horn", he has at least one opportunity to say he was a Somali -- if he thought this were the case.
• E. Haberland, writing an article on 16th century Ethiopia for the UNESCO series General History of Africa (vol. 3), simply states that "the brilliant Ahmad ibn Ibrahim al-Ghazi (Ahmad Grañ) who emerged from obscurity to become the charismatic leader of the djihad" (p. 712). In another passage, where he writes about origins of the Somali people & could be expected to say that Ahmad Gragn was a Somali, Haberland also fails to make this identification, or any ethnic identification -- although he, too, identifies him as an Imam.
• J. Spencer Trimingham, in his Islam in Ethiopia, which is frequently cited as an authoritative source for its topic in the secondary literature, while calling him an "Imam" (& noting that its expression at one point -- "The Imam of the Last Days" -- could be understood as suggesting that some of his followers thought of him as the Mahdi) only states that Ahmad Gragn spent his earliest years in Habat "the region between Gildessa and Harar" (p. 85). He, too, avoids the question.

In short, all of these avoid providing an ethnic identity for Ahmad Gragn -- which I find remarkable. Had his Somali identity been uncontroversial, most if not all of them would have asserted that he was Somali.

I think it is fair to say that all of these works are reliable sources, some of which are of the highest quality: peer-reviewed, appearing under the name of prestigious publishing houses. Let me compare their statements to the quotations Causteau provides above:

• Chatterji: "A Somali chief of Adel, a Muslim state on the Gulf of Aden, named Ahmed ibn Ibrahim by using the new weapon completely overthrew the Ethiopian kingdom..." Ahmad Gragn was not a chief, but a religious leader. Having made that mistake, can he be considered to be a reliable source about his ethnic identity?
• Beckingham: "Ahmad ibn Ibrahim al Ghazi, called 'the left-handed' by the Somali, (gran in Amharic), was a Somali in the service of the ruler of Zeila." (Where does this quotation come from? It is not in the book cited in the article under discussion.) Refuted above as unreliable.
• Groves: "The leader was a Somali chief, Ahmad ibn Muhammad Gran, Muslim ruler of a border state, who with great energy and resource pressed home the invasion of Abyssinia." Ahmad Gragn was not a chief, but a religious leader. Having made that mistake, can he be trusted to be a reliable source about his ethnic identity?
• Castanhoso: "He was certainly not an Arab: probably he was a Somali, for we find him closely connected with many who were Somalis." Incomplete quotation, & out of context. See my quotation above, which shows his ethnicity was not certain to R.S. Whiteway. Castanhoso calls him "a Moor."
• Langer: "Ethiopia was overrun by the Moslem Somali chief, Ahmed Gran, who used firearms." Ahmad Gragn was not a chief, but a religious leader. Having made that mistake, can Langer be trusted to be reliable about his ethnic identity?

I apologize for writing such a long response, & hope everyone interested in this issue was able to read my statement with a minimum of difficulty. However, Causteau's snideness in his last comment -- & his uncalled for quoting from a user's talk page -- has compelled me to defend my reputation at length. From the above, I believe it is clear that if I am guilty of promoting any novel conclusion, it is that the question of Imam Ahmad Gragn's ethnic background is still sub juridice, & not a settled issue. I hope that it is understandable to all Wikipedians who understand the goals of this project that it is better to err by assuming that there are more POVs to an issue than that there are none. -- llywrch (talk) 03:40, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your listing of sources and short analyses, Llywrch. I've avoided commenting on this subject for the past week due to a lack of historical sources on hand (I don't currently have access to my university library), and I did not want to make false assertions. One of the important issues here is of reliability. As Llywrch has noted, many have written about Ahmad Gragn, him being an extremely important figure in East African history, but few have done so authoritatively. You noted that you weren't sure if you had a source stating that his ethnicity has never been stated outright by the Futuh. You can find one on the talk page of the article where I cite Franz-Cristoph Muth's article on Adal in the Encyclopaedia Aethiopica. First, regarding the issue of OR, I made a comment regarding the passages added by Llywrch back when they were first added. The few passages that imply arguments from silence and the exact meaning of the connections noted in the Futuh seem to be OR to me. This does not mean the whole of his additions are OR, however. Much of the information is clear by itself, however, and does not require secondary sources stating or interpreting them (while they would certainly be appreciated, things like who his sisters married &c are pretty clear in themselves).

Going back to the reliability of certain sources, I do think Causteau has incorrectly attributed some opinions to authors that made no such claims. While Almeida is an important source for Ethiopian historiography (though he often makes clear mistakes, so he shouldn't be regarded as infallible by any means), I very much doubt he identified Ahmad as Somali. I don't have access to this source atm, so I cannot be positive in this regard, but Llywrch's citation seems to support that. Can you cite the exact passage where he makes this claim, please, Causteau? Moreover, there are a lot of modern authors who have written on Gragn who are not experts of the period that have, without analysis, adopted the interpretation that he was Somali simply on the basis that it is the most "loudly" expressed opinion. Somali nationalism has had an important influence on many authors (not because they believe in it, but because their fierce claims and traditions seem to them to be evidence that he was Somali), without there actually being significant contemporary (16th c.) evidence supporting their claims. Chatterji, Adejumobi, Groves, and Langer/Bruun clearly fall under this category, their works being general ones. Moreover, Esposito's claim that the Imam's army was mostly comprised of Somalis is, in fact, refuted by the Futuh itself (which must be his source for the claim), which, although makes clear it included many Somalis at the beginning of his activities, states clearly that very early in his conquests his army was divided three ways - 1 Somali contingent, another Harla (possibly an early Afar group, but not Somali), and another Malasai (another ambiguous Muslim group, but also unambiguously non-Somali).

Anyway, in short, while I agree that we should be careful in avoiding OR, and some of those statements do seem to do so, IMO, much of it is fine as it is. We should be just as careful in choosing our sources. There's a lot that's been written about Gragn, much of it untrue or simply unfounded. — ዮም | (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 22:02, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Original and Synth ?

Hi, in the article River Thames frost fairs, there is an argument over the extent of the Great Frost. The current sentence reads: During the Great Frost of (1683–1684), the worst ever recorded in England, the Thames was completely frozen for about two months and the ice was reported to be 11 inches (about 28 cm) thick at London

Some editors prefer the sentence: During the Great Frost of (1683–1684), one of the coldest winters recorded in the British Isles and parts of mainland Europe, and the severest winter on record based on the mean Central England temperature for December to February, the Thames was completely frozen for about two months and the ice was reported to be 11 inches (about 28 cm) thick at London.

It seems there are no references to support the claim of "British Isles". The references provided: Supporting British Isles: National Parks Authority

Supporting England or Britain (latest 3 peer reviewed journals): Andrew B. Appleby; Epidemics and Famine in the Little Ice Age; Journal of Interdisciplinary History, Vol. 10, No. 4, History and Climate: Interdisciplinary Explorations (Spring, 1980), pp. 643-663 Gordon Manley 1684: The Coldest Winter in the English Instrumental Record.Weather Journal 1975

• G. Manley, "Central England temperatures: monthly means 1659 to 1973.", Quarterly J. of the Royal Meteorological Society, vol. 100, pp. 389-405 (1974).

Other online articles: Times magazine article The Great Frosts of History

I'd appreciate an outside neutral opinion on the validity of the references, especially if an opinion exists to support using the term "British Isles". Thank you. --HighKing (talk) 14:23, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

I think this is trivial. If the first version is true, then the second is also true.Calamitybrook (talk) 21:46, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Furry Dance

Hi, a similar story on the article Furry Dance. A claim in the article states that it is one of the oldest customs still carried out in the British Isles. There does not appear to be any references that backs up this claim. There are many references that show it is one of the oldest customs in Cornwall/England/Britain.

The references for stating it is a custom in British Isles: A reference from an amateur Friends of Cornwall group [1] A reference from a book on teaching Physical Education [2]

"Even in the British Isles, there are still a few remnants of ancient dragon processions for good spring weather. At one time there were a great many such festivals. Most of the significance has been lost because of extreme propaganda by the church. In Britain many of the dragon figures carried in the processions have been destroyed. One of the few remaining is carried each May as part of the Helston Furry Dance." Dancing with Dragons by D. J. Conway (p176). Published 1995

The references for stating it is one of the oldest in Cornwall/England/Britain are too numerous to list, but include: Curious Survivals by George C. Williamson, Pg 148 [3] Cornwall Holiday Guide [4] Cornish customs and festivals [5] BBC Report states "oldest in the country" [6]

I'd appreciate an outside neutral opinion on the validity of the references, especially if an opinion exists to support using the term "British Isles". Thank you. --HighKing (talk) 14:23, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

The references look good. I don't understand your question about "British Isles." Isn't for example Cornwall in the British Isles?Calamitybrook (talk) 21:43, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Thank you so much for your response. The term "British Isles" is contentious and for articles like this the general opinion of many editors is that the largest significant geographical unit that has relevance to a Cornish/English/British custom is the obviously the largest Cornish/English/British geographical unit. This is not the "British Isles" since Ireland is not British.

But leave all of that argument aside. It is not relevant. More importantly, regardless of POV of editors, and whether editors are trying to push the term into articles or remove it, this question is about references. The references against using the term "British Isles" are numerous, yet one editor regards the single "Friend of Cornwall" reference as being good. My position is that a self-published reference like this does not meet the standards, but it would be great if a more experienced editor could take a look and give their opinion. Thank you again. --HighKing (talk) 16:13, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Regardless of which of the references are used, if this dance is only practiced in Cornwall and England, then only one island is involved, Britain, and it should say "British", not "British Isles" Squidfryerchef (talk) 00:16, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Congregation Beth Israel (Lebanon, Pennsylvania)

There's an AfD discussion underway for Congregation Beth Israel (Lebanon, Pennsylvania). It's a small-town synagogue that's been in existence for about a century without attracting much attention. The issue is notability, and there's been much discussion of what sources are reliable enough to establish notability for WP:NOTE purposes. Several editors argue that churches, etc. should be held to a lower standard of notability than WP:ORG requires. There are currently 24 references, most created during the AfD, but few if any meet the "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject" criterion of WP:NOTE. One editor asked"What reliable source(s) most clearly point out the shul's notability?", and that's perhaps the best one-line summary of the issue.

The larger issue is "church stubs" in general. There are some efforts underway to bulk-add church stubs based on directory information. Back in 2007 there was a proposal to give churches, etc. a presumption of notability (see Wikipedia:Notability (local churches and other religious congregations)), as Wikipedia does for high schools. That proposal was rejected, so the standard for churches remains WP:ORG, which some churches meet and some don't. Comments? --John Nagle (talk) 15:35, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't think that's the argument they are making. By the way, which "directory information" are you referring to, and what does this all have to do with the original research noticeboard? Jayjg ^(talk) 00:11, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Notability (guideline) comes under the "reliable sources" policy, although perhaps a "notability" noticeboard would be useful. --John Nagle (talk) 21:43, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Debate on Primary vs. Secondary Sources

I moved this from Wikipedia_talk:Reliable_sources) - shows how confused I was. Anyway, the result of this discussion might be used to make the discussion on primary/secondary sources more clear. I've read it a number of times and still get a bit confused. Carol Moore 18:35, 24 July 2008 (UTC)Carolmooredc {talk}

This debate between two people is here. Summarized (hopefully correctly) the debate is:
* 1. "People who use the term 'Jewish lobby' are primary sources; people who discuss it are secondary sources". (VERSUS)
* 2. "Sources are only secondary sources if they cite verifiable primary sources... A vague accusation is not a secondary source."
I am confused and would appreciate others' opinions so we can make decisions about the article based on a better understanding. Carol Moore 15:04, 24 July 2008 (UTC)Carolmooredc {talk}

I am confused too... how does this relate to reliability? The reliability of a source has nothing to do with whether it is primary or secondary. Blueboar (talk) 16:36, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

The "primary/secondary source" issue comes from WP:OR, so this discussion probably should move to the Wikipedia:No original research/noticeboard. --John Nagle (talk) 17:39, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Discussion on this talk page continues here...18:35, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

wow - that move tripped me up.  :-)

ok, allow me to point out the obvious. the 'Jewish Lobby' is in fact a conspiracy theory, not an established fact. there is no actual thing to be pointed to, and no academic consensus on the existence or non-existence of this entity. the only way secondary vs primary sourcing comes into this is in the use of partisan positions: sources which present partisan opinions (either by making claims about a Jewish Lobby, or by refuting claims made by others) are primary sources - they are trying to establish a point and convince others that point is true. sources which collect claims from both sides and compare them or analyze them are secondary. there may be a gray area where a someone collects claims from both sides, analyzes them, and comes to a conclusion, but generally that can be handled: sources that decide one side is wrong are primary, while sources that lay out the strengths and weaknesses of both sides and allow readers to draw their own conclusion are secondary. --Ludwigs2 19:20, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

What is a "Secondary source" in one instance may be a "primary source" in another. I do not think there is enough context given here for proper discussion. -- The Red Pen of Doom 11:42, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

new article, Depopulation of cockroach in ex-USSR countries, appears to be entirely OR

A new article created today, Depopulation of cockroach in ex-USSR countries, was created by the same editor who created its original incarnation (also today) at [7]. As far as I can determine, the entire article is original research, being a novel synthesis of a huge number of resources (all in Russian, except a single cite to a Moscow Times article in English which does not corroborate the vast majority of things in the article) which this editor has compiled into this awkwardly-titled article. I have tagged the article for proposed deletion, originally for its lack of verifiably reliable sources, but now that I see its origin, I am not sure whether its being OR makes it a candidate for speedy deletion; that does not seem to be among the listed criteria for speedy dels. The other thing is that it is equally inappropriate for it to be in the Russian Wiki, but I have no way of personally communicating this to editors/admins there. Maybe someone else can determine the best course of action for dealing with this article both here and at its source. Dyanega (talk) 23:36, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

FWIW, I think its a reasonable acceptable well sourced article. I can manage just enough Russian to tell that many of the sources are relevant, substantial, and reliable for the area.DGG (talk) 08:09, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

A question about fixing the Bonneville Speedway article

The description of the Bonneville Speedway is many years out-of-date. The Utah highway dept no longer prepares the "track". Each event must prepare their own. Only a few events still use the "black line", and those that do, use them as side lines because they wear out too quickly in the middle. I know this because I've worked as an official at nearly every race held there for the last 10 years, but editing the page would make my information from a primary source. Unfortunatly, I haven't been able to find any published descriptions about modern track preparations. Note that the two paragraphs that most need fixing don't site any refrences. What should I do? Jr9999 (talk) 03:40, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

if the incorrect material is unsourced then you should delete it. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:37, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps it's an overly slavish devotion to rules in this case to not simply correct the misinformation. Isn't there also a rule that says "ignore all the rules?"

But it's also conceivable that by searching harder, you can find other sources, which would be far preferable. Calamitybrook (talk) 21:36, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Help me understand this

Okay, as I understand it, WP operates solely upon research, information and sources not origination from the editors here. The editors are primary sources of info, and the citable references are secondary sources - WP uses secondary sources only. For many reasons, one of them liability shielding from inaccurate or damaging information introduced without citation.
Now, using this understanding, how do we write articles so as to note these statements? Citing this notable information, and sticking to what it says (using quotation marks for specific quotes and paraphrasing elsewhere) would seem to be plagiarism at worst and derivative work at best. Can I get a range of replies? I am trying to understand this better. - 207.181.237.191 (talk) 04:08, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

It isn't plagerism to quote someone, especially when you provide a citation to where you got the quote from. it is only plagerism if you try to pass someone else's words as your own.

The best advice I can give you is to look at articles on topics that are similar to the one you wish to write about. Note how they are structured and how they use citations. The next advice would be to find an experienced editor that can work with you... essentially a mentor. He/She does not need to be experts on the subject matter, just someone who writes well and is familiar with out rules and guidelines. Finally, be bold. Do the best you can and just write the article without overly worrying about the "rules". But at the same time, don't get upset if someone points out that something you wrote violates some policy or guideline ... instead take the comment as constructive criticism and a learning experience. Good luck. Blueboar (talk) 19:46, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Per WP:PRIMARY, primary sources are sources very close to the origin of a particular topic. Wikipedia editors are very close to the origin of the article, not the particular topic. Wikipedia relies on third-party published sources per WP:SOURCES, which are secondary sources rather than tertiary sources. (OK, now I'm confused.) Third-party published sources can be summarized or quoted from, neither of which is plagerism. Derivative works are more complex, but I think you need a big chunk of the original to be in the ball park of a derivative work. Wikipedia articles are constantly being edited so if there initially was a big chunk of the original, it probably has been chipped away. Suntag (talk) 02:27, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Chiropractic section on evidence basis

Does Chiropractic #Evidence basis have a significant synthesis problem?

In the opinion of the section's critics, the section is a WP:SYN violation when it presents specific research on spinal manipulation (SM) as evidence of effectiveness of chiropractic care as opposed to the whole range of treatments performed by chiropractors (not just SM), because the reader may confuse the assertions about spinal manipulation specifically as being assertions about chiropractic treatment in general.

In the opinion of the section's proponents, the section clearly distinguishes SM research from other research, every claim in the section is directly supported by a reliable source, standard practice in evidence-based chiropractic relies on SM research, and excluding highly-relevant mainstream research would raise serious WP:WEIGHT problems.

See also Syn tag, SYN and implicit conclusions, and Proposed wording for NOR/N. Eubulides (talk) 18:58, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

(Levine2112 edited the above comment; I am taking the liberty of restoring my comment as written, and moving Levine2112's easily separable additions to the following paragraph. He is of course welcome to make further changes and additions to his comments. Eubulides (talk) 21:07, 29 July 2008 (UTC))

In the opinion of the section's critics, the section is a WP:SYN violation when it presents specific research about non-chiropractic spinal manipulation (SM) as evidence of the effectiveness of chiropractic care. The proponents justify such a presentation by citing that other researchers have synthesized similar presentations about chiropractic from non-chiropractic SM research, thus we should be able to do the same sort of synthesis here at Wikipedia. Even though the non-chiropractic SM research makes no conclusions whatsoever about chiropractic specifically, the proponents still want to use such research to make conclusions about chiropractic in the Wikipedia article. Their justification is that such synthesis is "standard practice" (even though this is actually a matter of contention in the chiropractic research world and not standard practice at all). Levine2112 ^discuss 19:40, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

It would be helpful if you could boil this down to a simpler question so that one could more quickly respond.Calamitybrook (talk) 21:25, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

No kidding! Let me try. The question is whether it's original research for Chiropractic #Effectiveness to summarize and cite scientific studies on the effectiveness of treatments used by chiropractors, even when those studies focus on the treatments, not on chiropractic. An example study is Bronfort et al. 2008, PMID 18164469. (Is that short enough?) Eubulides (talk) 01:44, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

This is actually a misleading summary as it misses the point. Let's just clarify here and expand- rather than shorten - so we can explain the whole story for clarity. Spinal manipulation (SM) is a treatment used by many kinds of practitioners (chiropractors, osteopaths, physical therapists, etc.) Chiropractors employ a specialized form of spinal manipulations with specialized techniques which differ from other practitioners. Despite the difference in techniques, some researchers have applied the findings from studies of spinal manipulation as performed by non-chiropractors (non-chiropractic SM) to the efficacy of chiropractic SM. Those few studies are not being questioned here.

What is being questioned is the use of other studies of non-chiropractic SM which in themselves make no conclusions about the efficacy of chiropractic manipulation specifically nor are there any researchers out there applying the findings from these non-chiropractic SM studies to the efficacy of chiropractic SM. Though these studies are about spinal manipulation, they are not making any conclusions whatsoever about chiropractic spinal manipulation specifically. However, currently we are using these non-chiropractic SM studies to draw our own conclusions about chiropractic SM at Chiropractic #Effectiveness. Herein lies the WP:SYN violation.

What's more, there is much debate in the scientific community about whether it is okay to apply non-chiropractic SM studies to draw conclusions about chiropractic SM. In some cases, chiropractic researchers came under heavy fire from the scientific community after they used positive efficacy studies of non-chiropractic SM to declare that "chiropractic works". In these cases, the scientific community actually said that it is not all right to apply non-chiropractic SM studies to make conclusions about chiropractic SM specifically.

So to distill it down to one simple question: If one study applies general SM research to make conclusions about chiropractic SM, does that give us at Wikipedia license to draw the same conclusions about chiropractic SM from other non-chiropractic SM studies? -- Levine2112 ^discuss 07:17, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Okay, I may understand it a little better. I don't think Eubulide's summary was misleading, but perhaps a little unclear. Thanks Levine, for revising your initial inquiry. Taking the latest version of the question again at face value, one simple test might be whether anybody in the real (non-Wikipedia) world is actually using these various other studies to draw conclusions about chiropractic therapy. You might seem to be implying above that the answer is that yes, somebody is (who and for what purpose?), because otherwise, perhaps there wouldn't be a "debate." If the answer is no, defending the disputed material as non-SYN becomes slightly more complicated, but I'd still be inclined to do so, given the "one study" to which you refer.

A cursory reading of the article (all you can reasonably expect from a reader) doesn't make the issues you've described sufficiently clear. Perhaps it would be useful to precede the material in question with a very brief summary of the research and an equally brief statement of what you've described as the "debate" about its interpretation. (By the way, I'm not certain that the level of detail now included is necessary, but maybe I am just insufficiently curious.)

Also, when you say "chiropractic researchers," and "scientific community," are any of these people chiropractors? Also, what about the editors? Optimally, chiropractors would not be involved in this article, due to conflicts of interest. Calamitybrook (talk) 15:19, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

There are some non-chiropractic SM studies which some researchers have applied as evidence (for or against) chiropractic SM efficacy. There are many other non-chiropractic SM studies which no researcher has applied as evidence (for or against) chiropractic SM efficacy. It is this latter group of non-chiropractic SM studies with which this post is concerned. Though no researchers have applied these non-chiropractic studies to chiropractic, some editors are attempting to make such an application based on the rationale: "Some researchers have made the same application with some studies, so why can't we make the same application with some other studies?"

To answer your questions from above: "Chiropractic researchers" in this case could be chiropractors researching chiropractic, non-chiropractors researching chiropractic, or the chiropractic community in general. "Scientific community" refers to the vague body of all scientific-minded researchers. Some of our editors are chiropractors, some are outspoken chiropractic skeptics, some are chiropractic proponents, and some are neutral editors. As for myself, I am not a chiropractor. I am not a doctor or health practitioner of any kind. I see no COI issue with chiropractors editing the chiropractic article, nor do I see any issue with chiropractic skeptics editing the article. That is, provided that the individual editor can put their biases and POV in check when it comes time to edit the article. -- Levine2112 ^discuss 21:34, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

• one simple test might be whether anybody in the real (non-Wikipedia) world is actually using these various other studies to draw conclusions about chiropractic therapy There's little question that these studies are used in that reason. The example source I cited (Bronfort et al. 2008, PMID 18164469) is too recent to be cited by other sources, but it's quite clear who its authors and audience are. It is a review of spinal manipulative therapy (SMT) for low back pain. It has five authors, all chiropractors, and it says "The vast majority of SMT (previously estimated at 94%) in North America is provided by Doctors of Chiropractic (DCs)". The older sources being cited along the same lines (e.g., Assendelft et al. 2004, PMID 14973958) are explicitly cited in later chiropractic guidelines such as this 2007 guideline. Eubulides (talk) 15:35, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Of course the issue here is not only whether chiropractors use 94% of spinal manipulation (SMT), but that SMT is not "the only thing" that chiropractors do. When editors cite conclusions from research on SMT, the reader thinks we are talking about "chiropractic care" - which obviously includes other things as well. It would be like writing about all the research around Vioxx in the Medicine article. While a mention of the research on spinal manipulation is appropriate on Chiropractic, the details and nitty gritty need to go in the Spinal manipulation article where it can be discussed NPOV. To try and word research on SMT as if it is talking about chiropractic and putting it under a heading about chiropractic is misleading the reader to conclude that the results of the research on SMT can be equated with chiropractic as a profession and we suggest is really a synthesis error. BTW, I am a chiropractor, so do consider that in your thinking. -- Dēmatt (chat) 15:36, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

• The analogy with Vioxx is flawed. Spinal manipulation (SM) is identified with chiropractic; the overwhelming majority of chiropractic patients are treated with SM. This close relationship does not exist with Vioxx and mainstream medicine.
• The text in Chiropractic clearly states when it is discussing SM, and distinguishes it from other treatments used by chiropractors, which are also discussed briefly.
• This noticeboard is about original research, not about which articles text should go into; if the text in question were original research in Chiropractic, it would equally be original research in Spinal manipulation.

Eubulides (talk) 16:50, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Improbably claims in brochures

You're probably right. It used to be that chiropractors wrecked havoc on their own credibility with various consumer brochures that made many improbable claims. I hear they've cleaned up their act in more recent years. ~~

It is certainly the case that chiropractors make unsubstantiated claims in patient brochures; see Grod et al. 2001 (PMID 11677551). I'm unaware of reliable sources saying they've cleaned up their act recently. Eubulides (talk) 15:35, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Yeah I think the basic objection (as I understand it) is far too narrow to be reasonable, and even taken at its face value, is invalid. The cited material is relevant and useful. But I think the article could benefit from a general revision, shortening it with an eye towarad the general reader.Calamitybrook (talk) 17:48, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Homosexuality in speculative fiction #Comics and Manga

Is the following, from Homosexuality in speculative fiction #Comics and Manga, original research? It looks like it to me, but given it may be a sensitive article I would like further input.

Thanks for your time. Hiding T 11:10, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Added citation added calling him gay, and mentioning his "friend".Yobmod (talk) 16:26, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

My issues are more with the following:

• "Roy Thomas penned thought balloons for that suggested Firebrand had been involved in a gay relationship".
• 'Gay topics were still largely taboo in mass-circulation comic books in 1981, and words such as "confirmed bachelor" and references to a closeted identity were as close as a writer could come to actually saying that a character was gay.'

The first is speculation on the part of a wikipedia editor and the second is synthesis. Hiding T 08:31, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't really see the quibble. The quoted paragraph passes the "sniff" test," for me at least, and in my view, should stand. At the same time, however, the two objections raised immediately above are reasonable on their face. I admit to being uncertain when mere common sense becomes opinion and "original research." Surely there is a difference.

The main difference is that the first statement has no sources other than uncited thought balloons, leaving the reader with no way to verify it. The second simply states that "confirmed bachelor" was used as a code phrase here, with no source to back it up. Calling it common sense doesn't really help if we aren't 100% sure of the author's intent; people have a habit of reading too much into a work. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 16:51, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Wilderness Diarrhea Item?

In the article Wilderness Diarrhea and editor removed the following paragraph below because he said they constitute original research. I am asking here if the material is indeed "original research."

Gastrointestinal distress unrelated to microbial infection is extremely common as a result of strenuous excercise [8] and may potentially be confused with Wilderness Diarrhea. A study of 155 men and women who walked an average of 26 miles a day for four days, found 24% of the subjects experienced gastrointestinal symptoms. No relationship was established between symptoms and age, gender, previous training, or walking speed. [9] Factors in diarrhea related to exercise may include dehydration, the diversion of blood from the bowel to the working muscles (gut ischemia), certain foods and fluids, the use of tobacco and alcohol, or medications, heat strain and heat exhaustion. [10][11]

The reverting editor's comment is "Compared to the number of cases of diarrhea from pathogens, the existence of any significant number of cases of non-infective diarrhea among people entering the wilderness has not been supported by any reference presented here so far, and appears to be only your speculative idea. You might want to pursue your idea in another setting since Wikipedia doesn't allow original research that hasn't been published elsewhere."

So, is it original research? Other problems? Synthesis? Calamitybrook (talk) 20:03, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

It seems to me that something along these lines should be included in the article, and that the sources largely back it up. However, there may be a bit of a problem with conflation of general GI symptoms and diarrhea specifically, especially in the MS&SE ref. In order to allay the concerns of the other editor and improve the article, there will also need to be some information (just a statement, probably) contextualizing the prevalence of diarrhea caused by strenuous activity relative to the prevalence of diarrhea caused by pathogens. If we can improve it along these lines, I'll be happy to help argue for its inclusion in the article. Mr. IP 《Defender of Open Editing》 13:38, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Hundred Days' Reform

The Hundred Days' Reform page references Lei Chiasheng as having a new (2004) theory explaining motives for the Empress Dowager's response to the Reform. I have a suspicion that this is OR, but I don't know much so I want to defer to more experienced editors. A google search for "Lei Chia sheng" returns only 5 hits, all in Chinese (searching "Lei Chiasheng" similarly returns 6 hits).

Google Street View

I added the following to this article: "In Australia Google pledged to not to identify faces or number plates.^[1] However, it is still possible to view both.^[2][3]" Another editor claims that the second and third citations are WP:OR.[12] The links are direct links to the actual Google Street View images which are primary sources. WP:PRIMARY says "Primary sources that have been published by a reliable source may be used in Wikipedia, but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them. For that reason, anyone—without specialist knowledge—who reads the primary source should be able to verify that the Wikipedia passage agrees with the primary source." The cites I used seem to comply with that. I felt it was more appropriate to use a primary source in this case because it allows the reader to move the images around and verify, beyond all doubt, the claim themselves, in accordance with what WP:PRIMARY says.

So, my obvious question is, is this WP:OR? --AussieLegend (talk) 14:18, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

but adding However, it is still possible to view both. with just the google street view images is original research. I found Google takes a risky road with privacy which isn't original research and is a third party and is less likely to change unlike the google street view images so it's better suited to the article. Bidgee (talk) 14:34, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Why is it original research? It's no different to writing anything in Wikipedia and using a source to support it. You find a source, you add something to an article and then use that source to support the claim. Standard practice. Interestingly, your source doesn't support the claim. Face blurring is obvious in most of the pictures in the gallery. The only face that is anything close to recognisable is the one of the Google driver and that's because he's got his head next to the camera so that one doesn't count. No number plates are readable which seems to support Google's claim that "the low resolution of images would prevent vehicle number plates from being identifiable." This is the reason why the actual images from Google Street View were used. They're more appropriate in this case. --AussieLegend (talk) 14:48, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

It's most likely that the images on Google street view will be blurred. I've seen some number plates and faces better then the once sourced and even the onces in the gallery on the new source but I will not add it since it's original research and will likely be removed or blurred making the source not vaild however the Sydney Morning Herald states whats said even if it doesn't show faces and number plates as clearly as Google itself. Why I think it's original research is that it's an image and doesn't back-up the words stated within the article.

Interestingly, your source doesn't support the claim.

"Various unblurred images of faces and number plates have been removed from Street View following complaints from users"

"Google Australia spokesman Rob Shilkin said private roads and unblurred number plates and faces were removed from Street View as soon as they were brought to Google's attention via the reporting mechanism in "Street View Help"."[13]. Bidgee (talk) 14:56, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

"It's most likely that the images on Google street view will be blurred." - That's WP:OR itself. The important point is that right now they aren't blurred. The claim in the newspaper article was "the low resolution of images would prevent vehicle number plates from being identifiable." That is clearly not true in light of the evidence which you acknowledge exists. We don't write Wikipedia articles so they'll be correct in the future. We write them so that they're correct now. If the images are blurred in the future then the citations, and possibly the claim, can be changed or deleted then but, right now, they're correct and appropriate.

"Why I think it's original research is that it's an image and doesn't back-up the words stated within the article." - How do the images not support the article? The article states "In Australia Google pledged to not to identify faces or number plates. However, it is still possible to view both." The first citation clearly identifies a face and the second identifies a number plate. Both are clear demonstrations of the statement "However, it is still possible to view both."

"Various unblurred images of faces and number plates have been removed from Street View following complaints from users" - Various images may have but it is still possible to view both faces and number plates. That's a fact. "Vaious unblurred images etc" does not support that claim.

"Google Australia spokesman Rob Shilkin said private roads and unblurred number plates and faces were removed from Street View as soon as they were brought to Google's attention via the reporting mechanism in "Street View Help" - Again, this does not support the claim that it is still possible to view both faces and number plates. The images from Google Street View do. --AussieLegend (talk) 18:12, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

""It's most likely that the images on Google street view will be blurred." - That's WP:OR itself." No its not it's a fact[14] and it's a talkpage comment not content in an article. "Vaious unblurred images etc" does support the claim and "We don't write Wikipedia articles so they'll be correct in the future. We write them so that they're correct now." Incorrect. "That is clearly not true in light of the evidence which you acknowledge exists." Think what ever you want on the other source but it's still OR. Bidgee (talk) 21:03, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

"No its not it's a fact" - No it isn't. The reference you provided says "Various unblurred images of faces and number plates have been removed from Street View following complaints from users' but the other reference[15] says "Google said last year its Street View service would not identify faces or license plates in Australia." (emp