Wikipedia:NORN
This article is licensed under the GNU Free Documentation License. It uses material from the Wikipedia article "Wikipedia:NORN".

This notice board is provided so that editors can ask for advice about material that might be original research (OR) or original synthesis.

The policy that governs the issue of original research is Wikipedia: No original research (WP:NOR). It says: "Wikipedia does not publish original research or original thought. This includes unpublished facts, arguments, speculation, and ideas; and any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position." For questions about the policy itself, please go to WT:NOR.

Please post new topics in a new section. When a thread is closed, you can tag it with {{resolved}}.

Archives

1, 2

Mahamada

Hello, i've noticed that somebody redirected article Mahamad to some holy book (Bhavishya Purana). it would be better if its redirected to Tripurasura because Mahamad is not only mentioned in Bhavishya Purana and it further says reincarnation of Tripurasura an Asura. --Padma10 (talk) 15:33, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Full details here. The correct redirect is in place (the bit about Tripurasura is just a detail in the "story"). rudra (talk) 13:21, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

And an update. rudra (talk) 02:27, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

First-Hand Report

In the case of a person whose biography or references appear in Wikipedia who is (or was when alive) personally known to a contributor who encounters material which he knows to be incomplete, misleading or just wrong, is it admissible to enter a counterbalancing sentence clearly flagged as original, such as the following; (ORIG) Bloggs is often cited as a leading anti-smoking lobbyist (ADD) although friends (the present contributor) report he enjoyed the occasional cigar.

I mean of course when the fact is verifiable and relevant and occasions no unfairness or unpleasantness but has not necessarily been published.

Such a comment has just been removed from such a page summarily by the main editor of that page, who represented ?himself as having "the final say". Is the NOR policy so rigid as to disallow such personal knowledge of matters which, because too trivial for the written word, may remain otherwise unrecorded in the service of a public image? And is this matter so grave as to allow no flagging, no discussion, no attempt to verify on the part of the "controlling" editor? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Redheylin (talk • contribs)

From what you describe, the other editor is correct in removing the information. If it is not available in a published source, it is not verifiable for the purposes of Wikipedia. If a detail is too minor to be published in normal sources (which devote much more space to their subjects than Wikipedia articles), they certainly don't have a place here. Vassyana (talk) 01:33, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Personal synthesis of sources

On this [1] article, another editor is arguing that because one side is arguing one thing, they must also argue a second position. The problem is that not only do none of the sources say that, but some of them actually contradict the logic and outright disagree with the second position despite arguing the first position. I read over this protocol before but I'm not sure if this synthesis is considered "original research"? What should I do? --Robertert (talk) 08:33, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Looking at the edit in question,[2] it seems to be a case of opinion editing. You may wish to ask for assistance at the NPOV noticeboard. You could also ask for a third opinion. Vassyana (talk) 09:48, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Closing credits on Children of Men

An RfC has recently been opened in relation to this topic. Another request regarding the sources in particular has been opened on the reliable sources noticeboard here. This particular message concerns OR.

For more than a year, an editor has been, for the lack of a better word, obsessed with the importance of certain trivial elements within the closing credits of the film, Children of Men. At least five talk page archives 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 as well as the current talk page have been devoted to the smallest minutiae of the closing credits of this film, to the detriment of improving the article and to the exasperation of several RfC's, third opinions, and intervention from the film project.

The crux of the issue concerns two things: 1) the sound effects in the closing credits, specifically, the sound of "laughing children" playing in a schoolyard, and 2) the use of a closing title that appears at the end of the credits, that says "Shantih Shantih Shantih". Now, the consensus has been for the last year that these details are trivial, and unless reliable sources can be found for their inclusion, they should probably be left out of the article. Dozens of discussions have not deterred this editor, and still, he continues to insert this information into the article. First, it was placed in the plot section. Then, when it was demonstrated that the credits have nothing to do with the plot, it was deleted, only to emerge a year later when the editor found a personal website that copied the information from a user-driven part of the IMdB. The editor then claimed that this was proof that the information was notable, and placed it in the "themes" section of the article.

The irony is that this information was first uploaded to Wikipedia right around the time it was added to IMdB. I have often speculated that the editor in question added it to IMdb, and then used that as justification to add it to Wikipedia, but that is not the issue at hand. The issue is original research. To date, there are no reliable, published sources that discuss the laughter of children in the film's credits, nor its importance in the plot, as a theme, or anything else. Although most people following this issue many not be aware of this, the editor had originally attempted to insert this material into the article back in early 2007 as a means to advance a personal pet theory about the conclusion of the film. The editor has stated his theories in the talk archives, explaining that the sound effects of children laughing tie-in to the "Shantih" that appears in the closing titles. While several reliable sources have briefly discussed the Shantih in passing, none have referred to the sound effects.

Now, with that said, I have tried to argue the opposite, that is, to support the editor by examining evidence that would lend credence to this apparent synthesis/OR and render it suitable for inclusion. At present, there is only a primary source, that is the movie itself, to support including this material. While the information doesn't appear in the screenplay, the closed captioning on the DVD does say "children laughing" or "laughing children" (I can't remember which) when the credits roll.

After a year of this nonsense, I recently compromised by adding a citation to the primary source with the exact time stamp listed in the {{cite video}} template supporting the inclusion of the "laughing children", which aside from the DVD citation, cannot be supported. The editor in question promptly removed the source, which appears to me in direct violation of WP:V, as this material has been challenged for over a year and discused in the talk archives and the current talk page. Furthermore, the material currrently appears directly next to the sourced "shantih" material, supporting the editor's original pet theories about the connection between the sound effects and the closing titles.

In one of many explanations of his pet theories, the editor has stated that he believes "the Shantih and the sounds of children laughing and playing is part of the story" (17:56, 7 February 2007 (UTC)) and that the director "tells us that everything works out by using the sounds of children laughing and playing" (16:59, 13 February 2007 (UTC)) and that "the Shantih and the children laughing are all by themselves. There is no confusion as their strength or purpose as a plot device. There is no chance to blink and miss the imagery. It is a part of the movie, a continuation of such. In short, the sounds of children laughing and playing as well as the Shantih have thematic components. They are also technically a synoptic part of the movie, not as set dressing, not as lighting, not as background, but by themselves." (17:26, 9 February 2007 (UTC))

I am seeking comments on the RfC as well as suggestions on how to end this year-long conflict over OR. Viriditas (talk) 10:05, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

We are dealing with two issues here... whether the material is OR, and whether it is trivial. On the first issue... no, it is not OR to bluntly state that a sound effect can be heard in the closing credits. We can indeed cite the film itself as the primary source for that. If the article were to go on and analyze or interpret the sound, discussing why the sound effect was placed there, or what significance that sound effect has... then we would be in OR territory and would need a secondary source to verify the statement. On the second issue... I agree with those who say it is essentially trivial information. How does it improve the article to mention this?... and conversely, how does it hurt the article to leave it out? This isn't a policy/guideline issue however. A consensus needs to be reached on the article talk page. Blueboar (talk) 19:11, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Reply from Arcayne

While I responded more specifically to this point in the RS noticeboard, I am responding here as well, as a rounder picture of the issue might be somewhat more helpful. I am not going to address the uncivil characterizations by Viriditas, since its taken me a year to realize that it is a dead-end road to do so. Asking him to be civil and ease up on the personal attacks over the past 16 months hasn't been effective in curbing the behavior; I have little reason to believe that making the same request now would be any more effective.

I readily admit that I am of the opinion that the laughter of children in the closing credits - a dénouement of the film about human fertility and possible extinction of humanity - has some thematic weight. When I first started editing about this matter, I was still new to the policies and guidelines of Wikipedia, and didn't understand that even thought I could observe the phenomena, there was no citation about it, and could therefore not include it. After a RfC (Comment) decided the matter in favor of non-inclusion, the matter was put to rest for a time, and I went along with the findings of that (somewhat) independent finding. While I am not particularly bothered by the inclusion of my older posts by Viriditas, I think that dragging them here is rather pointless, akin to crying over spilt milk. After all, a person's edits and editing behavior is likely to mature over a year or so from the time they start. The arguments submitted for concluson have thusly matured as well, and have been since supported by documentation and reference. Most others would note that the posts (dredged from year-old archives) are all quite old. This should signify that there isn't really any sort of "obsession" with the article - or the other editor. It seems rather odd that Viriditas apparently maintains a list of my years-old posts. That would appear to better fit the definition of 'obsession.'

Citable references as to the usage of the closing credits end text "shanthih shantih shantih" noted in particular as to the likely meaning of their placement at the very end of the film. It should be noted that the same phrase also is used inthe film by one of the main characters while discussing the pregnancy of another character. As an independent source found that bit of information important to the theme and symbolism of the film, I would submit that, having done so, it is no longer Original Research or trivia to include it in the article (though personally, I think that it belongs in the Themes section, and not in a unique 'Closing Credits' section).

When another citation was found that noted specifically the sound of children's laughter, the citation - not a 'pet theory' or whatever - I reverted its undiscussed removal. The source of the citation itself was attacked as unreliable, and consensus found that while it wasn't a bad source, it wasn't established enough to warrant inclusion. The nonsense about copying from Imdb was speculative at best, and I won't waste this noticeboard's time with contesting the consensus found elsewhere. I didn't contest the results after they were given.

I did not create the Closing Credits section, and likely would not have done so; that was a creation of the complaining editor, Viriditas. I did not ad the bit about the children's laughter, as I could not cite it. After a recent noticeboard discussion concerning the view on the laughter as observable phenomena, I likely would have considered discussing its addition long before adding it to the article, so as to find a consensus (and subsequently avoid the vitriolic behavior and recrimination by Viriditas that attends virtually every post I make to the article). I only removed the addition of musical tracks from the section - as including only those particular songs without citation as to their noted importance would be original research.

""As well, I removed the cite video template noting the time-stamp of the incidence of the children's laughter and shouting (playing at a playground, as has been offered by Viriditas, is also speculative; the laughter and shouting of children is observed, not the playing). As a special section was added by Viriditas to include (or perhaps to segregate) the information about both the (cited info about the) shantih occurrence as well as the laughter phenomena, it seems like overkill to time-stamp the observable phenomena; we know it is in the closing credits, as the section says so. Would the casual reader really need to know precisely when the laughter began during the credit roll? Like I said, more info than is necessary. While I think the cite video (noted as an alternative) to be mostly redundant as to its usage in the contested edit, I think it bears pointing out that time-stamping is "useful for citing specific scenes, quotations or data.¹". As the creation of the section, Closing Credits pretty much specifies where the observable phenomena occurs, and since the phenomena occurs throughout the credit roll, the cite video time-stamping is redundant and unnecessary. In short, it's overkill. In each instance of reversion, I requested that we discuss the issue, as simply reverting wasn't resolving the issue still being discussed in article talk. Only after quickly arriving at 3RR did the other editor begin discussing the matter in earnest. His seeking out different forums here, the RS noticeboard and Wikiproject Films are a direct outgrowth of reaching that revert limit.

So, let's sidestep all the personal drama, and focus on the actual points, which I have explained my edits to the article, and (hopefully) clarified a better picture of the issue's background noise. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 22:01, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Reply from Viriditas

I have responded to your duplication of this discussion on the RS noticeboard in this reply. I want to point out that the diffs on the talk page and in the page history show that I have been engaged in discussing this for three weeks, and at no time did Arcayne reply or respond to the discussion on talk.[3] Furthermore, I was actively engaged in discussion during every edit I made to the article [4] while Arcayne blindly blanket reverted my edits and claimed that I needed to discuss his reverts. This is a serious OR issue, and there are significant number of diffs, both in the talk page archives and in the page history itself that show that Arcane's deletion of material is being done to support his pet theory that there is a connection between the sound effects and the end titles - a theory that cannot be found in any reliable source. Both Blueboar on this noticeboard and Shoemaker's Holiday on the RS noticeboard are in agreement that we can cite the film as a primary source for the sound effects. I have seen no editor other than Arcayne dispute this fact, so I will consider the matter regarding the RS closed and cite the material in question using primary sources, otherwise it should be removed from the article as both unsourced and trivial. Now, regarding the OR connections between the sound effects and the closing credits ("Shantih"), this pet theory of Arcayne's is only made visible when one deletes the songs listed in the credits. Arcayne has been removing this material specifically to highlight his pet theory, not as he claims, because it is "non-notable bloat". In fact, the three songs have at least two reliable sources in the article, and others are available. The Children of Men (soundtracks) article has the same/similar sources. So, the OR issue has not been resolved. Arcayne is attempting to synthesize a relationship between the sound effects and the closing credits by deleting any material that comes between the two items, namely the three notable songs. Multiple diffs can be provided showing that Arcayne has expressly and directly stated this idea in talk archives 2-6. Arcayne is banking on the fact that nobody but me has actually read and followed the comments on the talk page for the last year, or remembers how Arcayne has tried to repeatedly add OR to Children of Men since January 2007. To summarize, Arcayne first tried to convince us that the main character of the film had lived not died (contrary to all reviews and comments by the director and cast). Then, when he found that he couldn't edit war that false information into the article, he tried adding a trivia section describing the types of guns used in the film based on his own expertise. Again, that was reverted. Then coincidentally enough, someone added a user-generated entry to IMdB, and Arcayne began adding the exact same information to the article shortly thereafter, this time claiming that the sound of laughing children in the credits was directly related to the plot. After he tried edit warring this into the article and failed, anonymous IPs seemed to follow him around reverting to his version. Interesting coincidence. Even a few brand, spanking new registered accounts showed up out of the blue to help out. Then, Arcayne tried to argue that the organization in the film (The Human Project) was evil because he personally saw a sailor in the film with an "unsmiling face", and Arcayne tried edit warring his personal beliefs about the emotional state of a fictional character into the plot section. When this OR was reverted, Arcayne began arguing that the esteemed British film critic, Philip French was not notable and his film criticism should be deleted because Arcayne's personal beliefs were more reliable. To date, French's criticism has still not been added back into the article. This disruptive, nonsensical behavior went on for a year. More recently, Arcayne recently found a personal website that - surprise, surprise - copied the original information from IMdB, an unreliable source - and he added it back into the themes section. When consensus on the talk page and film project showed that this source was unreliable and should be removed, Arcayne refused to delete it, leaving it in the article for three weeks until I arrived to remove it, and here I am. Viriditas (talk) 03:35, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

I would counsel you against taking action whilst this matter is still in discussion, Viriditas - you are capable of expressing your viewpoint here to engage other editors and admins in weighing in on your interpretation without returning to edit-warring and 3RR. You have found yourself pointedly ignored in discussions where your lack of good faith and personal attacks is seemingly designed to distract folk from the main arguments. So, when you treat your fellow editors like crap, you should not at all be surprised when they choose not to interact with you. Rather than make furtive accusations about me operating sockpuppets, maybe submit an RfCU and await the results. Provide proof for any of the several pet accusations, and provide them in the proper venue. This is not the place for them. You might have failed to notice the name of this noticeboard; it is not named the 'Viriditas:-Things-I-Have-Compiled-a-List-About-Regarding-User:Arcayne' noticeboard. It is named the NOR noticeboard. Please make the less than Herculean effort to stay on topic, and on topic alone. While I can see where my behavior over a year ago, as a newbie was less than exemplary, your willingness to BITE first and assume incorrectly later is no more appropriate now than it was then. Please be more civil.

Now, with that bit of unpleasantness aside, the main issues are - again - is an observed part of the film, such as movie summaries and credits, exempt from the NOR and V rules? - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 23:05, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

I should also point out that I was under the impression that Viriditas had removed the citation as per discussion; it is clear that he has never seemed hesitant to remove anything I have added before. This recent issue is not prompted by that removal, but with the addition of redundant info and bloat. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 23:13, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

There is no redundant info and bloat. That's something you invented. Citing an academic who compares the end titles to T. S. Eliot's "The Waste Land" is neither redundant or bloat - it's the very definition of encyclopedic. Describing the use of two unique songs that appear in the credits and nowhere else is neither redundant info or bloat. Now tell me again how the sound effects of laughing children in the credits rises to a level above trivia? And where can I WP:V this sound effect in WP:RS? You're trying to promote your interpretation of the film, an interpretation that was originally added by a lone IP address in late 2006. What is the connection between sound effects of children laughing in the credits and the end titles? If there is none, and you are merely just observing the credits, why are you deleting the mention of two notable songs that also only appear in the credits and nowhere else, and a third song that was specifically created for the film? I'm not following your logic at all. Either we describe the most notable aspects of the closing credits or none at all. You do not get to pick and choose what you personally feel is notable. That's why WP:RS are important. And if we use RS, we discover that there is no source that supports describing the "sound of laughing children" and multiple sources that discuss the songs and their songwriters. Whenever we run into problems like this we are supposed to ask two questions: why is this material important, and where can I find it represented in a reliable secondary source? In the case of the "sound of laughing children", there is general agreement that it is a trivial matter, and it cannot be found in any RS. So, why should it not be removed? Viriditas (talk) 23:36, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

How many times do I have to say that I am not and have not promoted any interpretation of the laughter? Yes, yes, you point to instances when I did over a year ago, but how about recently? Again, you keep making this about me, and not about the issues. Yeah, you don't love me - I get it. Can we move on, please? If you find them inextricable, you might need to step back from the problem altogether. Here are some specific questions:

1. Explain how the time-stamp telling us where the laughter occurs in the Closing credits isn't redundant, when the section is called 'closing credits', and when the laughter occurs throughout?
2. Explain to me how noting an observable phenomena requires citation, and how this is different from noting the plot in the plot summary?
3. You keep saying that the songs appear only in the credits and nowhere else; can you expand on what you mean by that? Are you suggesting that they aren't a part of the soundtrack or just weren't used in the film?
4. What is your specific argument on the materials' triviality?

Arcayne, answering a question with a question is not a legitimate form of discussion. As the supporter of the material, you have the burden of proof. Primary sources were added, but you removed them. Secondary source citation requests were made, but you removed the cite request tags. Now, I've added a refimprove section template into the article. Please find secondary sources to support the challenged material and describe its importance. Thank you. Viriditas (talk) 02:06, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

My questions remain. You don't have to answer them, but understand that I will wait for them before responding to any ancillary questions you may wish to pose. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 06:23, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Your questions have all been answered. There are no reliable sources that support your pet theory regarding the trivial sound of sound effects children laughing in the credits. On the other hand, there are RS supporting the inclusion of the three songs in the credits. (Crust, Kevin. (2007-01-07). "Sounds to match to the 'Children of Men' vision". Los Angeles Times) Now, why did you remove the songs and leave the sound effects of children laughing in? Now, if you will be so kind as to answer the questions I asked of you above your comments, I would appreciate it. Viriditas (talk) 13:49, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, I think you have sort of answered #4. How about answering questions 1-3? - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 17:22, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Arcayne, the burden of proof is on the editor adding content. The content you added about "laughing children" is not found or supported by any reliable source. Because it is unsourced trivia that you are using to push a POV about the conclusion of the film (in the words of User:80.192.175.116: As the screen fades to black, sounds of lots of children laughing is heard, showing that her baby was the answer, and humans are able to conceive once again) we can't use it. If you can find a RS, great, but until then, it doesn't belong in the article. Viriditas (talk) 02:01, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Answered both above and below - you only have to read to see. Why do you keep adding anon user interpretations? They aren't my comments. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 17:02, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Reply from Baseball Bugs

Is this movie on DVD? Do the producers of the film have anything to say about this matter? Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 04:29, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, the film was released on DVD in 2007. The producers, the director, the cast, and other members of the team have not commented on the topic of the sound effects (laughing children) and the end titles (shantih) , however, interestingly enough, they have commented on John Lennon and John Tavener, two of the songs removed from the closing credits section by Arcayne. Michael Caine's character is expressly based on John Lennon, and the director has spoken about his collaboration with Tavener and his composition for the film, "Fragments of a Prayer". So mentioning that these songs appear in the credits is notable, and there are multiple, published sources that review and discuss the music. There are no sources that discuss the sound effects of laughing children, and only one, web-based source that mentions the "shantih" end titles. Viriditas (talk) 05:02, 23 April 2008 (UTC)Correction: At least two other sources have been found that discuss the Shantih, an article in the Coshocton Tribune and the Los Angeles Daily News. Thanks to Erik for bringing this to my attention. Viriditas (talk) 09:36, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Did they comment on where the story might pick up after the film's storyline ends? Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 05:05, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Never, and there is precedent for artists, writers, and directors to leave this type of speculation to the audience. Cuarón even makes this clear in a number of interviews, repeatedly making comments like: "We wanted the end to be a glimpse of a possibility of hope, for the audience to invest their own sense of hope into that ending. So if you're a hopeful person you'll see a lot of hope, and if you're a bleak person you'll see a complete hopelessness at the end." I should also mention that in addition to reading a hundred or so articles on the subject, I have listened to and transcibed the two interviews from the Creative Screenwriting podcasts with Alfonso Cuarón and Timothy J. Sexton, and while the topic of music repeatedly comes up (the director and the writer often used music as a creative catalyst during their writing sessions) the sound effects and end titles in the closing credits are never mentioned. Viriditas (talk) 05:10, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Never having seen the film, I could nonetheless get from their comments that the sounds of children tie in with their "possibility of hope", i.e. that the human species would not go extinct. Taking the "hopeless" side, the sounds would be simply irony, i.e. something that would never be heard again. Also, I don't speak Hindi, but I take it that word "shantih" means something like "inner peace". Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 05:18, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean by "get from their comments" as the director is talking about the end of the film, not the credits, and has never discussed the sound effects of children laughing in the credits. If one had to speculate about the sound effects, one would have to look no farther than the screenplay or scene 12 of the film itself, titled "Waiting for Syd" on the DVD. In this scene, the dead silence of an empty school playground is remarked upon by Miriam: "As the sounds of the playgrounds faded, the despair set in. Very odd, what happens in a world without children's voices." (Time stamp: 1:02:43-57) The sound of children playing in the credits draws upon this very scene, reminding us what we've been missing for the last 109 minutes. There has never been a direct, sourced tie-in with the sound of children laughing in the credits and the "possibility of hope" pertaining to the fate of the human species. That theory was initially proposed by Arcayne a year ago, and he has been edit warring it into the article ever since. It is pure original research. Like you, I Want to Believe there is a connection, but there is a big difference between our personal beliefs and what is. WP:OR is pretty clear on this: we don't publish original thought, the material must be attributable to a reliable, published source, and the articles may not contain any new analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position not clearly advanced by the sources. Arcayne is trying to promote the very idea you have described, that "the sounds of children tie in with their "possibility of hope", i.e. that the human species would not go extinct." Unfortunately, there is no evidence supporting that idea. On the other hand, Erik was kind enough to post two sources, one that linked the Shantih to the theme of hope (Lowman, Rob. "Cuaron vs. the world", Los Angeles Daily News, 2007-03-27.) and the other that defines it as "the peace which passeth all understanding". ( LaCara, Len. "Cruelest of months leaves more families grieving", Coshocton Tribune, 2007-04-22) This still doesn't address why the music was removed from closing credits section, nor why the sound effects of children laughing in the credits rise above trivia. Viriditas (talk) 07:07, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, the director has given us one datapoint, and the comment by Miriam is another datapoint. So the children's voices over the closing credits counterpose the ending. It's easy enough to report both of those statements and also report the sounds heard over the closing track, without spelling it out... in short, presenting it exactly as the filmmakers did: thus the readers, as with the film audience, are left to draw their own conclusions. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 08:28, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

No, I'm afraid you haven't been following this discussion. The director has never commented about the sound effects of children laughing in the credits nor the ending credits ("Shantih"), nor does the in-world comments from Miriam have anything to do with this, as it would WP:OR to even mention it without sources. The directors comments about the "possibility of hope" concern two things unrelated to this topic: the theme of hope and its relation to contemporary events (which is a separate topic and is already covered in the article); and the presentation of these themes in the documentary "The Possibility of Hope" included on the DVD. This has nothing to do with this discussion. This discussion is about original research. Viriditas (talk) 08:54, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

The opening and closing credits are part of a film. You have that quotation from a critic, or whatever, that points out the connection between the "Shantih-Shantih-Shantih" and T.S. Eliot's despair-filled classic poem. And you have the statements by the director and the character in the film. So that takes care of the OR issue. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 09:11, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Please educate yourself about the difference between diegetic and non-diegetic film elements. The credits in question are not part of the fictional world, nor is there a single reliable source that states otherwise. For the second time the statements by the director and the character in the film have nothing to do with any aspect of this discussion. The directors comments specifically address the theme of hope and how it relates to the real world. As for the character, we cannot use film quotes to promote an idea without RS; you may want to review WP:OR if you don't understand what I am saying. Please limit your comments to direct statements concerning the topic of original research. Thanks. Viriditas (talk) 09:22, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

The closing credits are part of any film. The music and sound heard on any closing credits often have to do with the film's contents and themes. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 09:33, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

The main difference between Arcayne's version and yours seems to be whether to also include the music. Is that what this dispute is about, after a year? Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 08:42, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

No, that is not what this dispute is about at all, and I've outlined the dispute several times in this discussion, on the RS noticeboard, and in the current RfC on the talk page. I would like to thank you for wikistalking me here from Talk:Bibliography of Philip K. Dick. I know you are upset about our last discussion, but the if you are going to insert yourself into a discussion, the least you could do is first familiarize yourself with the topic. Viriditas (talk) 08:54, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm not upset about anything, it was you that was upset, and your accusation of wikistalking does not help your credibility. I have the right to read, comment upon, and question anything I want to. And the only difference I'm seeing, currently, between the two versions, is whether to talk about the music or not. Since Arcayne wants to exclude it, presumably he needs to explain why. Or maybe he already has, somewhere in this megillah. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 09:11, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Have you ever edited on this noticeboard before your reply to me? You seem to be following my contributions in order to make trouble. That's wikistalking. You also seem to be ignoring my comments and making off-topic speculations that have nothing to do with this topic to distract the discussion away from the topic. You've had your say, now please, go away. Viriditas (talk) 09:22, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

I have the right to follow and comment what anyone else is working on, which I often do (as do many others) because it broadens our base of knowledge and interest; and you have no authority to tell me not to. It is you that has gotten yourself into 3RR territory on this topic. And I'm raising these questions because I'm curious to know. This is an educational process. I had never heard of that film before, and now I'm curious about it. It seems like a different twist on the "end-of-the-world" scenarios that are explored in literature and media from time to time. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 09:33, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for admitting that you violated WP:STALK. Now please read and understand it. Viriditas (talk) 09:40, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

I do understand it. Not guilty. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 09:48, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

I see you put a couple of fact tags in the article. Does the word "shantih" appear on the screen in English? If so, no fact tag is needed, as it can be observed unambiguously. The children's voices, though, might indeed need a fact tag, because how do we know for sure that it's children's voices, and not something that happens to sound like children's voices? Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 09:17, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

This is not the place for your comments about the film. Please use Talk:Children of Men. Please also read and understand WP:V: Material challenged or likely to be challenged, and all quotations, must be attributed to a reliable, published source. Viriditas (talk) 09:25, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

It seems like you've got commentaries on this matter all over the place. Maybe if it were all in one place, it would be easier to follow. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 09:33, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Also, you ignored my question: Does the word "shantih" appear in English on the screen? If it does, there is nothing "controversial" or OR about it, as it is uniformly verifiable by anyone who sees it. The same might not be the case with the kids' laughter. To even characterize it as kids' laughter might be considered OR. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 09:36, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm not going to discuss the topic with someone who admits to wikistalking me here in order to disrupt this discussion. I have not ignored any questions; the problem is, you don't know what you are talking about. The word "shantih" is used both in the film and in the credits. I suggest you learn a little bit about the topic before continuing to distract the discussion. If you are concerned with citations, then bring it up at the RS noticeboard, where there is already a thread on this very topic. Your childish, immature behavior on Talk:Bibliography of Philip K. Dick speaks volumes, and I do not wish to encourage it here. Please, go away. Viriditas (talk) 09:41, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

You've decided that I've admitted to wikistalking, when all I have done is perfectly legal. Just as you decided I had accused someone of plagiarism on that other page, which I did not do. Back to the real topic, there's a distinction to be made between simply reporting that it appears on-screen vs. putting an interpretive spin on it. If the word "shantih" appears on-screen, in readable English, then it is automatically verifiable and is not OR. Interpreting its usage, without citable discussion, obviously is OR. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 09:48, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

That isn't what is being discussed here, Baseball Bugs. If you are concerned about sources, please take it to the RS noticeboard. I believe I have already explained this to you. Viriditas (talk) 10:03, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

OR is the topic, and I have asked a simple question about OR that you should be able to give a simple answer to: Does the word "shantih" appear in print, on-screen? Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 10:07, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Also, being as how you two have apparently been having this debate for a year now, with no resolution, it seems like some other parties coming in here and asking some questions could be beneficial toward resolving it, as the two of you by yourselves alone don't seem to be getting there. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 09:53, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but you are seriously misinformed, and once again, distracting this discussion. This dispute was resolved many times from RfC's to third opinions, and most recently by the film project. The talk page notes that conensus was achieved each time against Arcayne's insertion of OR. Arcayne has never accepted the consensus at any time. Each time, he returns with the same material, trying to push it into the article. Seeing as you wikistalked me here from another article where you are personally involved in a dispute with me, you are not neutral nor in a position to comment without bias. Consensus has been reached on this issue many times without your help, and each instance, consensus was against Arcayne. That Arcayne chooses to continue editing in a disruptive and tendentious manner, is his choice. There is nothing to discuss with you Basball Bugs, as every edit you make distracts and distorts the topic under discussion. I'm placing you on ignore now. Viriditas (talk) 10:02, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

You appear to be under the mistaken impression that I am defending Arcayne against you. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 10:07, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Also, subtracting my questions, the only verbiage on here, other than one statement by Blueboar, is between the two of you. Since you two are at loggerheads over this, I wonder how this issue could get resolved if it's just the two of you talking about it? Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 10:12, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

The reason this kept my attention is because of its deja vu aspect. When Superman Returns came out a couple of summers ago, there was this intense debate over whether the article could say that the child in the film was the "love child" of Kal-El and Lois Lane. It was as plain as the nose on your face that that was the case. However, it was not overtly stated in the film, and so it was technically speculation, i.e. it was OR. That issue and this one have some similarities. The difference is that the Superman issue was quickly settled. For this one to go on for a year is absurd. Get some arbitration, get the attention of an admin, or whatever it takes, to get this resolved. Otherwise you'll be spinning your wheels until doomsday. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 10:43, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for finally answering my question straightforwardly. The word "shantih" appears on-screen, so mentioning its presence is not "controversial", nor is it OR. Interpreting its presence, without appropriate citation, would be OR. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 12:39, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Arbitrary break 1

As mentioned preciously, discussion on no less than four articles (two of them noticeboards) has considered it 'clear consensus' that the children's laughter is observable phenomena and as such, doesn't require citation. The shantih is cited, but even if it weren't, it too would be includable, as it is also observable. Now, if we wish to change policy as to how we use at WP:PSTS, we have to address the following:

=

"Primary sources that have been published by a reliable source may be used in Wikipedia, but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them. For that reason, anyone—without specialist knowledge—who reads the primary source should be able to verify that the Wikipedia passage agrees with the primary source."

As the source of the laughter (and the Shantih) both fulfill this criteria, let's read on:

"Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation. To the extent that part of an article relies on a primary source, it should:

• only make descriptive claims about the information found in the primary source, the accuracy and applicability of which is easily verifiable by any reasonable, educated person without specialist knowledge, and
• make no analytic, synthetic, interpretive, explanatory, or evaluative claims about the information found in the primary source."

and since there is no interpretive value being added to the observation of the laughter. check and check.

Okay, that was from WP:NOR. Looking at WP:V, we see:

"The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material. All quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged should be attributed to a reliable, published source using an inline citation."

Since the phrase 'burden of proof' has been tossed around willy-nilly a few times, lets put it into the context intended by the actual policy. The burden of proof, such as it were, is to prove that something actually occurred, or that a citation is in fact what it claims to be and represents what is claims to represent. As there is no editor who challenges the existence of the laughter or where it occurs in the film (any more than someone challenges the plot of a film) the burden of proof has been clearly met. Were someone to say, 'golly, that sounds like a string quartet there at the end' or 'are those dogs I hear barking?' there might be an issue. However, it is not. Everyone agrees that the sound is indeed laughter, and the laughter is indeed from children.

Lastly, the contested information has been contested as being trivial. Okay, let's look at that, as well:

"Trivia sections should not be categorically removed. It may be possible to integrate some items into the article text. Some facts may belong in existing sections, while others may warrant a new section. Migrate trivia items to prose, or to focused lists (such as "Cameos" or "References in popular culture"), whichever seems most appropriate. Items that duplicate material already contained elsewhere in the article can be removed in most cases."

Though we aren't dealing with a list of trivia, I think the intent remains the same. Even were the contested statements to be considered trivial, we usually try to incorporate them into the article text. This was already done, as presented in the Closing Credits section already present in the article.

Were that not persuasive enough, the guidelines on handling trivia say almost the same thing about integrating stand-alone trivia

"Stand-alone trivia usually make excellent candidates for integration into the articles they appear in."

and in fact, the recommendations on handing trivia (same article) backs that up rather clearly:

"Trivia that can be integrated into a relevant discussion of a specific aspect of an encyclopedia subject should be integrated into that text if it exists. If no such text exists, but it would be relevant, it should be created."

This would mean that the trivial bits about the music previously added to the Closing credits question should likely be added to the aptly-named section 'Music'.

It is quite likely that the editor taking issue with the inclusion of this information is seeing this as a sourcing or content issue, which might be part of the problem. It is instead a citability issue, which I think has been resolved through a closer look at the actual policies and guidelines. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 03:58, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Bravo. That's a wonderful example of wikilawyering and gaming the system. In reality, the "observable phenomena" of what you describe as "children's laughter" is your interpretation of a sound effect. To me, it sounds like children talking and playing on a playground, and it was apparently not significant for any reviewer or critic to make note of it. Please place your interpretations of trivial sound effects aside, and focus on finding reliable sources for your claims. Material challenged or likely to be challenged, and all quotations, must be attributed to a reliable, published source. All challenged material. There are no exceptions. Viriditas (talk) 09:05, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

I guess the repeated requests for a cessation of the personal attacks and your promises to others to be more civil seem to have been forgotten. Perhaps you should actually read the post without your disdain. You yourself have stated the core of that which you seek to remove - it is the sound of children laughing. It is your OR that suggests they are playing - an opinion I removed after you added it. You are not challenging the existence of the laughter, as you yourself have added it a number of times yourself. I don't disagree with you adding it. I do disagree with you using a time-stamp self-redundantly using the cite video template. When the primary observation is made that children are laughing (using the explicit and implicit source that is the film), it doesn't need citation. It would if an evaluation (ie, interpretation) were made as to the meaning of it were suggested. Despite your pointing to archives over a year old, that simply hasn't been made recently. That and your rather disruptive accusations of old sockpuppetry (which you have yet to provide any proof of outside of vague accusations) tell me that you don't really disagree with the implementation of the statement noting the children's laughter. You simplhy disagree with it because I want it in. With apologies, Wikipedia is not a battleground; please stop treating it as such. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 21:33, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't think there is serious doubt as to it being laughter. Any reasonable person would agree with that statement upon watching the closing credits. Again, something as mundain at this is not OR... it is citable to the film itself. On its own, the blunt statement that one can hear laughter of children during the credits is not a violation of WP:NOR. However, any statement as to what that sound means, or is intended to convey must be cited to a secondary source. That leaves the question of whether the blunt statement is relevant or worth mentioning in the article. That is an issue you will have to argue about on the article talk page, not here. Can we please call this settled? Blueboar (talk) 21:57, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Blueboar, Arcayne has said several times on the article talk page that your phrase, "it is citable to the film itself", means we do not need to provide a reference. In the past, I have provided both a primary source and a note showing exactly when the "children laughing" occurs in the film. Arcayne thinks that references and notes like this are not needed, but of course, since the material has been challenged, WP:V needs to be enforced. There is nothing wrong with sourcing this information to the film. The problem is, unless we have a secondary source showing why this trivia is important, it is OR, because this material has been used to advance a position that the sound effects in the credits are meaningful and are a commentary on its conclusion. No reliable sources have made this connection, which is why the material has been repeatedly removed. Whenever we use primary sources like this, the material needs to be supported by secondary sources. We do not get to pick and choose elements from a film merely because we think they are important. That's what is going on here, and that is why Arcayne has repeatedly removed sourced information about the closing credits (such as the songs that appear in the credits) and placed it other sections. By deleting this material, he is attempting to game the OR and RS policies, and advance the position that the sound effects in the credits (an unsourced observation) are linked to the end titles and the conclusion of the film, a theory he has talked about at great length in the archives. To date, there is no evidence for this claim, and the cherry picking involved here is OR. The statement "citable to the film itself" does not mean "remove primary sources and notes showing where the sound effects appear in the film". Viriditas (talk) 22:35, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

As has been asked at least six different times, please point ot even a single instance within the past 12 months when an interpretation has been offered in the article. The reason I keep asking this is - quite simply - because you cannot indicate that I have done so. The music is better off in the music section, where I did a rewrite to make it flow a lot better in the article. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 05:08, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

And as I have explained several times, the interpretation is implicit in inclusion. There is no RS on record observing or describing the importance of the sound effects. Your position has always been that the sound effects are important because they comment on the survival of the human race. I have rebutted that notion by observing the direct reference to scene 12 which refers to the absence of children's voices in the world. IMO, the sound effects are reminding the audience what it sounds like and what we have been missing for the last hour and forty minutes, and do not in any way comment on the conclusion. Because of this ambiguity, and lacking RS, the OR policy recommends avoiding including such information. Viriditas (talk) 05:39, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Clarification requested: In order to resolve this issue, I would like to have the following questions answered by Blueboar or any other outside neutral party:

1. Per MOS:FILM and WP:V, challenged material requires sources. Is it acceptable to add a reference to the sound effects of children laughing in the credits? Can this reference be the film itself, and list the time stamp indicating the time the closed captioning appears describing the sound as children laughing?
2. The editor adding the sound effects of children laughing in the credits has argued on the talk page for the last year that this information needs to be included because it is important to the film and gives the audience information about the conclusion. In the opinion of the editor, it tells the audience whether the human race survives at the end of the film; in this theory, the sound of laughing children indicates that the human race did not go extinct, and the human race survives to reproduce. Therefore, inclusion is an implicit interpretation. WP:PSTS states that "Wikipedia articles should rely on reliable, published secondary sources. All interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary source, rather than original analysis of the primary-source material by Wikipedia editors." Additionally, "unsourced material obtained from a Wikipedian's personal experience, such as an unpublished eyewitness account, should not be added to articles. It would violate both this policy and Verifiability, and would cause Wikipedia to become a primary source for that material". The OR policy also makes it clear that: "'Original research' is material for which no reliable source can be found...Passages open to interpretation should be precisely cited or avoided...It is important that references be cited in context and on topic." Is it acceptable to remove the sound effects of children laughing from the article until a secondary source is provided describing its importance?
3. The editor adding the sound effects of children laughing in the credits is also removing sourced descriptions of other elements in the credits in order to highlight the personal interpretation of the editor, namely the importance of the sound effects. Other sounds that appear in the closing credits, like the songs by Lennon and Cocker, have been described by the staff writer of the LA Times as having significant meaning. By removing these sourced elements from the closing credits section, the editor is attempting to advance the position that only the sound effects and closing titles are important to this section. Is it acceptable for a closing credits section to only describe what is important as stated by reliable secondary sources, rather than relying on editors picking and choosing elements from the film without reliable, published sources?

Thanks. Viriditas (talk) 00:07, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

• Yes. The blunt statement that "the sound of children laughing can be heard during the closing credits" is acceptable, as it is verifiable. You should cite the film itself as the primary source for that blunt statement. In fact, since it has been requested you should cite it. If this sound is discribed in the closed caption, this should be mentioned in the citation as well, and adding a time stamp for this is highly appropriate.
• The opinion of an editor as to what the sound may indicate is clearly OR. Unless you have a reliable secondary source that discusses the sound, you should not say anything about what the sound might indicate. In the absence of a reliable secondary source, ALL you can say is that the sound exists. Period. I am not sure why you would want to mention this sound without including any comment as to its importance or meaning... but you are allowed to do so. Simply saying "the sound of children laughing can be heard during the closing credits" is not OR, and is verifiable... but it does seem irrelevant. As for removing the blunt statement... It would be an error to remove it on NOR grounds, but it might be removed for any one of many other reasons. For one thing, it might be removed if the consensus is that it is irrelevant to the article, or is nothing but trivia. I don't think there is such a consensus, but it would be a legit reason to remove (This needs to be hashed out at the article talk page, and not here - as it has nothing to do with Original Research)
• It is very bad form to remove information that is cited to reliable secondary sources without consensus to do so ... especially since these sources do discuss the reasons why the other sounds and songs were chosen (ie what their significance to the film is). It may be removed if there is consensus to do so... but that does not seem to be the case. This information should be kept.
• Finally... My advice on this... I see no harm in keeping the blunt statement that "the sound of children laughing can be heard during the closing credits" (cited directly to the movie), even though it is somewhat irrelevant without explanation. Then move on to discuss the information about the various songs and their meanings (cited to the sources that discuss these songs). Blueboar (talk) 02:37, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

I am willing to abide by your recommendations in full, not in part. As an aside, previous consensus in the talk archives has found this information to be trivial and has recommended leaving the sound out of the article as a result, but I fully support fleshing out a closing credits section that includes all notable elements with appropriate sourcing. It should be noted, however, that using the film as a primary source to add trivial elements that cannot be found to be supported by secondary sources is not best practice. I agree that the sound effects are irrelevant without explanation, which is why they don't belong. The essence of a good article is distilling the topic down to its essential, encyclopedic points, and presenting the information in a format that can be easily verified. While it is true that with the addition of a primary source, we can verify that the sound effect appears in the film, it is entirely unclear why we are mentioning it in the article. And the reason it continues to be added to the article is due to the implicit nature of the theory formulated by the editor that keeps adding it. So I continue to maintain that this is OR by inclusion. However, noting my objection, I am willing to restore the closing credits section in full, which means including the sound effects sourced to the film as a primary source and noting their appearance in the closed captioning, adding the music and explaining its importance, and mentioning the closing titles (shantih) and the description of the closing titles in the closing credits section - not split into the music and credits as Arcayne has been trying to do. I would ask at this time that Arcayne also agree to the proposal offered by Blueboar and compromise, noting also that I am compromising by allowing the sound effects to even be included without a secondary source explaining their importance or at the very least, noting their appearance. Viriditas (talk) 03:49, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

I certainly agree to the information about the laughter of children being added. I will compromise in allowing the cite template to be used, hackneyed as it is. The music doesn't belong there, and I stand by the edit that put it in the section called - oddly enough - Music. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 05:08, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

That's not negotiable and you are not agreeing to a full compromise as proposed by a neutral third-party that requires concessions form both sides. Please try to compromise. Allowing for a source to be used isn't a compromise; it's policy. The compromise is spelled out above. Either agree to it or not. I am on record agreeing to a proposal made by a neutral third party, and I am on record making a concession and a compromise. Please do the same and work towards consensus. Agreeing to the information abut the laughter of children being added isn't part of the end of your deal, as that is expressed position. Agreeing to promote your own position is not compromising in any way. Please, no more games. Read the proposal above and agree or disagree with it. Viriditas (talk) 05:36, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

With respect, I believe I have made my answer clear, Viriditas. I accept that the info about the children shout be cited suing cite video. The music doesn't belong there, and has been placed in the music section, where it belongs (and where you further edited it). Please, no more incivility and personal attacks, accusations of sock-puppetry, use of 14-month-old newbie edits or whatnot. Consensus says its in. It's in, though via a clumsy citation tool. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 21:29, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Read Blueboar's proposal. You have not made any concessions or tried to compromise. Blueboar has repeatedly stated that adding sources and placing the music in the credits section is acceptable. That's the compromise. Blueboar is a neutral third-party, and that also happens to be the consensus of contributing editors to the RFC, such as MovieMadness, MPerel, and others. So, Arcayne, I must ask you put your POV aside and follow consensus. The comments on the noticeboards have given you an opinion. The RFC has given you an opinion. Now, you must stop edit warring and accept it. Viriditas (talk) 22:41, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

I believe I have made my position perfectly clear. I agree to adding both the music and the children's laughter. There is no POV on my part (and despite me asking you to provide proof of that, you have been strangely and uncharacteristically silent). The editors you just noted all note the ned for the inclusion of the material. There are more who explicitly say so, though you forgot to mention them.

The music is already in place in the Music section - where I moved it and wrote it better (with citation). You may add the cite video template as to the laughter of the children. What is your issue? - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 23:20, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

If you are both agreed that the material should be in the article, and are just arguing about where to put it... may I suggest that you take the discussion back to the article talk page... you are not really dealing with NOR issues anymore. Blueboar (talk) 02:06, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

My agreement is based on a concession. I don't agree without a concession from the other side. The sound effects are disputed because of their OR implications. We do not just pick and choose elements of the film to add to the article. This particular material was added to support an interpretation of the film. Now, if it is important enough to include, RS will have discussed it. They don't. And, by removing a sourced observation about the music in the credits and placing it in another section, the sound effects become selectively chosen for emphasis and are highlighted in the absence of any other notable aspect of the credits, so we are back to OR. In other words, a selective presentation of the credits is a synthesis of published (shantih title credits) and unpublished (sound effects) material. A closing credits section discusses all aspects of the credits as described by RS. Arcayne's insistence on removing the sourced material about the music (music which takes up the majority of the closing credits and is considered notable to the credits by the LA Times) and adding his preferred, selective highlighting on the sound effects of children laughing and the shantih end titles, is a deliberate gaming of the RS rule, which originally prevented him from adding the IMdB and another personal website that quoted the IMdB which originally hosted this material. So this is a repeated attempt by Arcayne to game the RS policy. And this is being gamed to present OR. It is true that we can verify that the sound credits appears in the film, but we cannot verify their importance in terms of presenting it in the article. NPOV is pretty clear on this, as it used specifically to represent significant views, not the views of editors. It is a case of editorial bias to selectively choose only one or two aspects of the credits to present, while presenting other aspects of the credits in another section. This bias is supported by numerous remarks made by the editor in the talk page, where he has argued that the combination of the sound effects and the end titles represent an important commentary on the conclusion of the film. By removing sourced descriptions of the music in the credits, the editor is given the opportunity to synthesize his selective opinion as fact. That is the very definition of OR. Viriditas (talk) 02:42, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Sigh... let me be repeat this clearly and bluntly: It is not OR to include the blunt statement "The sound of children laughing can be heard during the closing credits". It is a factual statement that can be verified and cited to both the film itself and to the text of the closed caption version. If Arcayne (or anyone else) adds further comments, discussing why this sound occurs or what it might mean, without citation to a secondary source, then (and only then) you might have an OR issue. Arcayne says he does not seak to include such comments. He is satified with simply including the non OR blunt statement. So there is no longer any OR issue involved in including it.

The information about the songs and their meaning is also not OR. That information can be cited to reliable secondary sources. Thus there is no OR issue involved with including it.

In other words, there is no OR issue here. As far as WP:NOR is concerned, all of this information is allowable.

There may be other issues that need to be discussed, such as as to whether any of this information is important enough to mention, or where it should be mentioned. But these issues are not within the scope of this noticeboard. They have nothing to do with Original Research. Please take your endless debate back to the talk page of the article... or over to some other policy's talk page/noticeboard. Blueboar (talk) 12:42, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Blueboar, the statement is OR as it is being used in synthesis with the end titles, "Shantih", and as a selective representation without two of the songs that take up the entire credits. There is no evidence anywhere of this connection (and its isolation) and it is an interpretation of the credits by the editor, an interpretation that is being made to support a pet theory discussed at length by the editor in question. I have solved this problem here by placing the sound in the sound section and the reference to Eliot in the contemporary references section. Therefore, the content is preserved, but is no longer artificially linked by the editor in question. Arcayne has added the word "shouting" to his description of the sound effect. That word appears nowhere; The closed captioning says "laughing". It is an interpretation for Arcayne to link this sound effect to the end titles, and he continues to do it. It is also an interpretation for Arcayne to selectively portray only the parts of the credits that support his theory. There is no secondary source that describes the sound effects of children laughing, and none that links them to the end titles. This piece of trivia is being used to promote a personal theory by an editor, and it is being connected to the end titles in a way that cannot be supported. This construction is original thought and cannot be found anywhere else. All material must be attributable to a reliable, published source. It's that simple. Editors can never make observations about a film that do not already appear in reliable sources. Plot sections can always be sourced on official websites, in critical reviews and commentary, and in interviews. The OR issue here is that Wikipedia is now being used as a primary source. Prior to this addition, an anonymous editor added this information to IMdB. Since IMdB is considered an unreliable source, it was not allowed to be added. Arcayne tried to get around this by quoting a personal website that cited IMdB. That too, was removed. Now, Arcayne is trying to use the film as a primary source to cite the IMdB material. This is a deliberate gaming of the OR and RS policy. There are six achives, and five of them are full of this stuff. This is just from Talk:Children_of_Men/Archive_2:

One of the things that ties the shantih at the end to the story is that the sounds of children's laughter and playing is heard while the credits roll (and while end title music plays). After the title music ends, close to the end of the credits, the children sounds are still heard, which fade at the same time the shantih fades. then there are 4 more seconds of silence until the film flickers the way it does before the lights go up. Arcayne 01:08, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

As the Shantih and the sounds of children laughing and playing is part of the story as well, it is inappropriate to move it. Arcayne 17:56, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

I disagree with your assertions that the Shantih Shantih Shantih at the end of the film are “non-narrative, thematic interpretations” (and I think it fair to expect you to cite referential material to support that claim, if you can). I have stated on several occasions that it is part of the story, and is part of the plot as final piece of the story, tied together by the sounds of children playing and laughter. These sounds continue in the background, while the music plays, while the credits run their course. The sounds stop after the Shantih is displayed...Simply put, the Shantih is part of the plot because it occurs during the sustained past of the film, tied to it by the sounds of children laughing and playing throughout the credits and musical accompaniment. It is stated, like dialogue or graffiti on a wall, and not purely thematic (like the presence of pets, or the fact that Theo never touches a gun). That the Shantih is also thematic is not disputed. However, it is a part of the plot as well. I am not going to spend more than a moment to address the rather silly claim that the sound of children laughing may not even be that, and is not up for us to decide, because if that were true, then nothing we can observe throughout the entire movie is up to us to interpret, and a plot synopsis itself in an invalid concept. Nor am I going to address the prior claims that the sounds or the words were diegetic in nature, as it simply doesn’t meet the definition of such. And I think it would be unfair to address the claims that the laughter and sounds of children does not “reflect directly upon the structure of the plot or its conclusion” - in a movie about a possible future without children at all. It would be vastly unfair to drive the Choo-Choo Train of Sensibility through the hole in that reasoning. Lastly it has been suggested that the Shantih shouldn’t be compared to TS Eliot’s poem The Wastelands, because a “barely reliable source” supports it. Perhaps here Viriditas has something of a point; reliable sources are important in Wikipedia. It is why, for example, a so-called “official” movie script cannot be utilized as reliable source material. I am sure that eventually, some reviewer will stumble across the fact that both the poem and the film end with precisely the same words and that, as Cuaron is a Catholic and not a Hindu, and realize he is making the same point that Eliot was, and included it as a major plot point. Alas, until that day, I am not sure we can say it in the article...Arcayne 09:35, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

If you are going to again shift your argument to insist that the laughter and shantih is now an audio sample and a title, you certainly need to defend that conclusion with citation. The observable fact that the items aforementioned are actually in the movie, and a continuation of the storyworld are inescapable and honest. To deny they exist is silly, as the proof of one's own eyes from viewing the movie clearly shows. Arcayne 21:46, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

I said that the children's laughter and shantih (not "audio and titles") had thematic components, not that they were solely thematic.Arcayne 03:11, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it is addressed in the Themes section, because that is the only place where the Shantih can be explained, and its connotations explored through citable reference. I am not now, nor have I ever argued that the Themes section is not where that should be explored. However, I have provided equally apt technical reasons as to why it still remains in the synopsis (no longer plot synopsis, but synopsis). I have explained why both are plot points (as observable events not in the background but notable events occurring in the foreground on arguably equal footing with dialogue), and have done so repeatedly. It is not extraneous imagery, like a prison gate or a hooded prisoner; such are set dressing or production choices designed to have thematic elements. The Shantih and the children laughing are all by themselves. There is no confusion as their strength or purpose as a plot device. There is no chance to blink and miss the imagery. It is a part of the movie, a continuation of such. In short, the sounds of children laughing and playing as well as the Shantih have thematic components. They are also technically a synoptic part of the movie, not as set dressing, not as lighting, not as background, but by themselves. And I have said this before, but the practical aspect bears repeating: if a user comes here to get the synopsis of a movie before s/he goes out and sees it (trying to keep from plunking down dead presidents for a crappy movie), they deserve to know what happens in the movie - even the very end of it, so they don't leave before seeing it. They aren't going to focus on the other sections until after they've seen the movie, to see if their opinion is shared by the article. I am guessing that there isn't a lot of mention of the Shantih because the reviewers were probably not even aware that the story was going to continue after the credits (a la Young Sherlock Holmes and JFK), and likely left while the credits rolled. You will note that most of the reviewers noted the laughter of children, as that continued through the end music and credits. Most of the reviewers likely didn't stick around. But then, that is just a reasoned guess on my part...It has occurred to me that there might be a different way to look at this. In one of the interviews mentioned in the Themes section, Cuaron said he meant for the end of the movie to be ambiguous and uncertain. While I personally think that he tells us that everything works out by using the sounds of children laughing and playing, it has proven (at least here) to be very ambiguous indeed. I also think that Cuaron made a point of making the Human Project, the supposed Sanctuary of the piece, seem a bit darker than originally thought....Arcayne 16:59, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

There's a lot more where that came from. Viriditas (talk) 14:31, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Arbitrary break 2

Oh, I understand - you are confusing consensus with concession. That isn't the case here at all, V. The consensus says that the film itself can be used to note the laughter of the children. Plain as day. You don't want it to be in the article because you yourself are imparting an "OR implication" to the laughter - an implication that no one else has made in over a year. I am sorry, but you should consider that keeping something out based on speculation is as OR as putting something in based on speculation. Also, characterizing someone who holds a different viewpoint than yours as a sock, wikilawyer or someone who is "gaming the system" are other examples of your speculation not being actually of any import here. In fact, they can get you blocked.

Moving the musical selections to the music section is not a move to impart greater (or any, for that matter) import of the sounds that appear in the closing credits. It simply puts the a part of the film into that section specifically created for it. We use sections in this manner so as to assist the reader with knowing what parts of the film are notable. Musical references is added into the music section, themes expansion into themes, production details into production, etc. This is why I moved them - and not removed them, as you bizarrely keep stating - it was a readability issue.

You are the only person here - the only person - who is adamant that the sounds not be in the article at all and yet, you are the one who initially added them. Only after your usage of the cite video template was challenged did you become abrasive and drastically alter the article to suit yourself. I suggest that your forum-shopping this issue to two different noticeboards, repeated incivility to anyone who disagrees wth your viewpoint and unwillingness to compromise are clear signs of OWNership. Until you are ready to actually compromise (which is quite a different thing from concession), you will not find me a willing participant in your own administrative woes. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 17:18, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Arcayne, I'm not following you at all. The material was added by you to the article, and the diffs show that:[5] Really, sometimes you don't make any sense.

The music in question only appears in the credits - it does not appear in any other part of the film, and is supported by a RS, unlike your sound effects. In fact, the music in question takes up the majority of the credits, so removing it from a "closing credits" section is not justified in any way. The music section deals with the score and the music that appears in the film. Viriditas (talk) 08:28, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

The material you say I added was based on a link that was later determined to be less than reliable. When I say you added it, I am referring to wehn you removed the bad source and retained the children's laughter and used a cite template on it (1, 2) It was only after the material was added by yourself that you tossed in the material about the music (3), which you incorrectly describe as "(taking) up the majority of the credits"; the laughter of the children occurs throughout the credits. Might I ask you to source the basis of your statement that the two songs appear nowhere else in the film? Were that even true, it begs the question, so what? Many films have songs - or "sound effects," as you call them - that only play in the credits (King Ralph and Blues Brothers); it isn't especially notable that this one has one or two songs that aren't in the body of the film. Now, name some films that have children's laughter playing throughout the closing credits - I couldn't think of any that did, either. Let's just keep the music in the music section so the reader can find it easily enough. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 12:36, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

After reading through this entire sordid affair, I have come to two conclusions as an uninvolved editor: 1) there is no dispute that the sounds of children are in the end credits; however, it is tangential to the article and I fail to see it as notable enough for inclusion; 2) any interpretation of the sounds is OR, as there are no sources to back up what it means. If the fact that the sounds exist is included, it should simply be a one-line mention, with no interpretive value added. -- Kesh (talk) 03:32, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

I absolutely agree with you that this has indeed taken on a far larger (and more contentious) context than it needed to. I also agree that the statement about the laughter should be noted, without any interpretive value added without secondary citation to that effect. Neither I nor anyone else in this discussion has intimated a desire to add a speculative interpretation to the article. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 03:50, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Kesh, I agree with you and so have a dozen editors in the past year; the sound effects of laughing children are not notable for inclusion. The problem is that Arcayne is including the sounds in the credits without any RS and removing two unique songs that only appear in the credits and are sourced to the LA Times. The fact is, the two unique songs take up most of the credits and have been commented on by the staff writer of the LA Times. Yet, according to Arcayne, the two unique songs are not suitable for the credits section. The reason the trivial sound effects of children laughing (not supported by any RS) continue to be added to the credits, is because Arcayne has been promoting a theory about their use in the talk archives, and believes that the sound effects are commenting on the conclusion of the film. The interpretation is implicit in its inclusion. No RS has made mention of the sound effects, so for Wikipedia to observe them, is in effect, turning Wikipedia into a primary source for the importance of the sound effects. Wikipedia does not publish original thought: all material in Wikipedia must be attributable to a reliable, published source. Allowing for these kinds of edits is to permit the worst kind of editing. By allowing for a primary source to be used whose notability, applicability, and relevance has been questioned, is an invitation to opening the floodgates to OR. Anyone can take a dozen primary sources, and select specific aspects to quote and include, and what you get is pure bias. When primary source material is questioned, we turn to secondary sources for guidance. This is especially important in works of art like films, since film fans are constantly trying to game the system to push their pet theories. This is exactly what is going on here, but may not be obvious to people removed from the complexities of the discussion. To me, it is very simple. If you don't have a secondary source to support your primary source "observation", and the material is challenged, we can't use it. Viriditas (talk) 08:31, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Er, who are you commenting to, Kesh or me? The post was kind of all over the road, so I wasn't sure.

On the off-chance that you were trying to reply to me, let's point out what errors you seem to continually make here. I add them in the fervent hope that you finally listen:

1. I have no - I repeat, no - interpretation of the sounds of the children laughing through the closing credits. Viriditas keeps pointing to year-old archived edits because