Wikipedia:Ethnic and cultural conflicts noticeboard
This article is licensed under the GNU Free Documentation License. It uses material from the Wikipedia article "Wikipedia:Ethnic_and_cultural_conflicts_noticeboard".

This noticeboard aims to serve as a place where incidents of the principle of neutrality being violated due to chauvinist and nationalist sentiment can be reported. It is common for edit wars, revert-warring, and general disruption to be caused on Wikipedia by real-world ethnic, national, and cultural conflicts, as the partisans in these disputes take their quarrels into cyberspace.

When posting here, please link to the relevant article(s). If you mention specific editors, please inform them of the thread. Consider also including some background information, not only relating to the specific dispute, but also the relevant ethnic conflict. Everyone knows about the Israel-Palestine conflict, but the Nagorno-Karabakh War is rather more obscure. If you do this you are far more likely to get an effective response.

Situations requiring immediate administrative action should go to the incidents noticeboard. Situations requiring immediate enforcement of arbitration committee remedies should go to the enforcement noticeboard.

Trakai Voivodeship

Background:

Trakai Voivodeship is a historical, geographical entity (it existed from 1413-1795, first in the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, and after Union of Lublin 1569 still in the Grand Duchy in the federal state of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth as one of the voivodeships of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth). Unfortunately there are no clearly established name in the English literature for the terms related to the administrative division of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth; voivodeships are sometimes reffered to as palatinates or provinces, and geographical names like Trakai are referred to in spellings of various nations once controlling the territory). There are very few English language sources making reference to this entity (a discussion long ago at WikiProject History and Geography of Poland has concluded that voivodeship is the proffered term to palatinate or province, and this has not been challenged). Trakai is a Lithuanian name (the city of Trakai is currently in Lithuania), and Troki is a Polish name variant of the city. Lithuanian was not an official language in the Commonwealth; Polish was (see Polish-Lithuanian_Commonwealth#Languages_of_the_Commonwealth); the historical name in official language of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth - Polish - was województwo trockie). It is likely that the province has been referred to in Ruthenian language (as before the 1697 the official language of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania was the Ruthenian language, albeit Polish was increasingly used due to polonization after Union of Lublin in 1569).

Conflict:

A recent discussion and vote about renaming Trakai Voivodeship (not a single source has been found to support this name) to a slightly better referenced Troki Voivodeship (supported by three references in English, all three however written by Polish authors publishing in Engish) has generated a stalemate on talk (with voters relatively clearly divided among national lines). Lithuanian editors prefer Trakai despite no English source supporting this name, Polish editors support Polish name, and the discussion is dominated by the "Poles vs Lithuanians" attitude. The stalemate, if continued, will result in keeping the ORish name Trakai Voivodeship. No side has suggested using the Ruthenian spelling (personally I am not even sure what it would be, and I've found no reference to it in the sources I've read). Input and mediation by neutral editors, who would attempt to mediate between Polish and Lithuanian editors, is requested.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 20:07, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Discussion:

It looks like there's a fairly civilized WP:RM discussion going on at the talkpage. Some editors feel the name is OR, others feel it's appropriate. Mediation might be helpful. Have you attempted to submit something at WP:MEDCAB or WP:MEDCOM? Or filed an RfC? --Elonka 15:38, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

I am not sure if "fairly civilized" applies, as most of the editors vote (and argue) only to support the argument "my national version is right". A name that is not used in English sources is obviously ORish. I agree that a mediation of an RfC could help, hence I posted here - the intention of this board is to offer mediation and comments for issues related to ethnic/cultural conflicts (and this is obviously a one).--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 15:17, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Slavic/Macedonian toponyms in Greek Macedonia

Unresolved. This issue will never be resolved, despite what the rest of the world believes

Problem:

Solving the naming dispute on Many Greek Town's with a large Slavic speaking population (regardless of ethnicity) which are situated in Central or West Macedonia. What language is usable? Macedonian, Macedonian Slavic, Slavic, Local Slavic, Nothing, Bulgarian, South Slavic even?

Background:

*NOTE: This post concerns the Slavic language spoken in Western and Central Greek Macedonia (which is considered as Macedonian or Macedonian slavic), not East Macedonia which is Sometimes considered Bulgarian'

For hundreds of year the Whole region known as Macedonia was part of the Ottoman Empire. When the empire disintegrated many new Balkan States took control of Areas previously controlled by the Ottomans. Most of the Slavic populaiton of Macedonia was considered either Bulgarian or Slav Macedonian, they were the majority population in Macedonia but many large minorities existed (Greeks, Turks, Roma, Aromanians, Albanians). The Greek army took control of the area today known as Greek or Aegean Macedonia after the first Balkan War. They consolidated their rule after World War One. (This is where the Politics Start :) ).

After World War One Many people Bulgarian's left Greek Macedonia and Thrace for Bulgaria as part of population exchanges (in Greece they are referred to as Slavophone Greeks or simply Slavophones), this mainly affected people living in Eastern Macedonia and Thrace, an estimated 50,000 - 70,000 left Greece. Before World War One, Slavs were the majority population in Greek Macedonia while Greeks constituted a Minority. Yet during the years 1913-1926 major demographics changes would take place. Hundreds of thousands of Greeks were resettled from Black Sea, after 1926 Greeks made up the Majority population in greek Macedonia. They are often called Prosfiges or Refugees, while the original Slavic Inhabitants are often refered in greek as Dopii or locals.[1] Although a language primer (Abecedar) was printed in the local Slavic Dialect (which is now considered Macedonian by most non-Greek linguists) the general policy in the inter-war period was the restriction of the Macedonian language at all levels of society. The use of the Macedonian language was forbidden and people were forced to attend night school.[2] Toponyms and Personal Names were changed from the local slavic to the Greek version, ie. Lerin → Florina, Ovčarani → Meliti. (Note: Greeks refer to the local slavic dialects as a "local idiom with a mixture of Greek, Turkish, Slavonic and Vlach influences)

During the Second World War many Slav Macedonians joined the KKE, soon the Slavic-Macedonian National Liberation Front (SNOF) was established. The Macedonian language was freely taught in Greece, and many macedonian langauge newspapers, schools, theatres and other establishments flourished. The language which was taught was the same language as the language in the Socialist Republic of Macedonia or the Macedonian language.[3] SNOF soon developed into the National Liberation Front (Macedonia), an ethnic macedonian dominated organisation fighting for the Communists. Many of the Slav's who previously identified as Bulgarians began to identify as Slav Macedonians.[4] But the KKE was defeated and tens of thousands of Ethnic Macedonians fled Greece, today they are known as Aegean Macedonians. The 1951 census recorded c.41,000 speakers of Slavic, although this is widely considered a undercount. By 1959 language oaths were introduced in greek villages whereby the villagers claimed to renounce their slavic dialect and speak only Greek.[5] Depite this Slav speakers (regardless of ethnic identity) still made up a large proportion in Florina, Kastoria, Eddessa and the surrounding areas.[6] An estimated 65% of the Florina Prefecture considered themselves Dopii or Locals ( a term synonymous with Slavophone Greeks). An Ethnic Macedonian political party was founded in Florina in the 1990's, it has had most support in that Prefecture with the election of a member to the post of prefecture counselor. Today the estimated number of Slav's (regardless of ethnicity) is between 50,000 to 200,000.[7], [8], [9]. (Note: The Macedonian language is often refered to by scholars as "Macedonian Slavic" or "Slav Macedonian" when the language is in Greece)

Greek POV

Only a few thousands elderly bilinguals speak a local idiom in the border reagions with FYROM. The idiom is a mixture of Slavonic (mainly bulgarian), Greek, Vlach, Albanian and Turkish. The slavic language should not be confused or indentified with the "Makedonski" (Macedonian) spoken in FYROM. Consequently the language used in FYROM although related should not be identified with the idiom spoken in some regions of Greek Macedonia.[10] There is no Slav Macedonian minority in Greece.

Ethnic Macedonian POV

The [slavic] dialects spoken in Greek Macedonia form many of the dialects of the Macedonian language. The macedonian language is widely spoken throughout Greek Macedonia. Some Macedonian activists assert that there is over 1 million Ethnic Macedonians in Greece.[11]

Linguist's Opinions

Peter Trudgill : Greek non-linguists, when they acknowledge the existence of these dialects at all, frequently refer to them by the label Slavika, which has the implication of denying that they have any connection with the languages of the neighboring countries. It seems most sensible, in fact, to refer to the language of the Pomaks as Bulgarian and to that of the Christian Slavonic-speakers in Greek Macedonia as Macedonian.^[1]

Roland Schmieger: Apart from certain peripheral areas in the far east of Greek Macedonia, which in our opinion must be considered as part of the Bulgarian linguistic area (the region around Kavala and in the Rhodope Mountains, as well as the eastern part of Drama nomos), the dialects of the Slav minority in Greece belong to Macedonia diasystem.^[2]

Most Linguists agree that the Slavic Language spoken in West Macedonian (eg. the Florina/Kastoria region) and Central Macedonia (Pella, Kilkis, Imathia) is Macedonian.

• Note: Many Slavic/Macedonian language speakers who identify as Greeks do not associate their Language with their ethnicity, nor do they call their language Macedonia. Dopia is a term often used by Slavophone Greeks.

Conflict:

To put it simply. Most Macedonian editors claim that the language spoken in West and Central Macedonia is Macedonian, this veiw is shared by most linguists and scholars although many of them use the term "Macedonian Slavic". Greek users claim it is not Macedonian, but rather Slavic (which even states that the language spoken in Florina is Macedonian} or remove any name other than the Official Greek Name. There have been many revert wars over towns like Florina and Kastoria. I Would like to achieve a wiki-protocol which can be applied on most Wikipedia pages. Input by Neutral Mediators and Administrators would be appreciated in order to achieve a decision on wikipedia, and to mediate between the Macedonian and Greek users.

PS. I have tried to make the intro as neutral as possible.PMK1 (talk) 08:56, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Discussion:

Per everything I've learned from my time on Wikipedia, I'd say only the Greek name should stay. The ethnic (or linguistic) minority is not huge, but tiny and it doesn't justify having the name in the lead. It might be added in the history of the article with its Slavic name prior to the Balkan wars when Greece took hold of the region. Most scholars consider the Slav people that used to live there Bulgarians and their language Bulgarian. We know what the view in RoM is - they were ethnic Macedonians and their language Macedonian etc. So the only NPOV way of putting things is having the language as Slavic - no matter if its Bulgarian or Macedonian, it is definitely Slavic (we have to discard some ridiculous views regarding the ancient Macedonian language). SO the only NPOV way of saying it, is Slavic. Or local Slavic or whatever, but with now wikilinks to some alleged dialect that is viewed as such only in RoM. --Laveol ^T 11:58, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

<scratches head> Do we have a policy on this? Or a guideline? IMO putting alternate place-names in the lede of articles is fairly harmless, provided that place-name actually exists and is used (not just an invention). Moreschi (talk) (debate) 13:14, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Clarification: when the dispute is over the actual naming of the article, then the most common name should be used. Most common among all of humanity, that is, not just Macedonians and Greeks. Moreschi (talk) (debate) 13:16, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Actually, none of it is about the title of the article - it's obviously the Greek names for that. It's the name of the language of the alternative name. Should it be called "Macedonian", "Macedonian Slavic", "Slavic" or "local Slavic" or....BalkanFever 05:50, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

WP:NCGN was designed to address the issue of alternate names in lead, among other things.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 15:11, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

At Florina, it was decided that the alternate name could go in the lead, but what to call that language was the point of debate. BalkanFever 05:50, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I hadn't looked at the condition of the Florina article and talk page until after I wrote this. BalkanFever 09:38, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, well that is essentially the problem. People have agreed that a large Macedonian/Slavic speaking population is in Florina. Linguists agree that the language spoken in that part of Macedonia is clearly macedonian. Even the article "Slavic dialects of Greece which Local Slavic directs to clearly states that the language spoken in West Macedonia is Macedonian. That is the idiocracy of the whole subject!. The Language can be called by it's proper name on article, but when it comes to a naming link the standards have changed. PMK1 (talk) 06:09, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Suggestion: say "[Name X] in the local Slavic language" then discuss which language precisely in a footnote. --Folantin (talk) 09:04, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree with user Laveol. The Slavic minority of Macedonia was almost entirely referred as Bulgarian from every historical source. The term “ethnic Macedonian” has appeared recently. (If we want to mention historical Slavic names in the region we should clearly refer to them as “Bulgarian”.)The present status of the Slavic dialect is almost confined in 2-3 villages.(Further more most of the people that still speak these dialects considered themselves to be Greek.)

So the only NPOV way of putting things is having the language as “Slavic” but with now wikilinks to some alleged dialect that is viewed as such only in RoM.Seleukosa (talk) 09:27, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Skopje has a huge Albanian population do we really need the name of the city in Albanian? At least we do not have to make linguistic research to determine which language they speak. The same goes for Spanish in Los Angeles, Chinese in Kuala Lumpur, Idish in Vitebsk, etc. Usually we provide non-English names of a city in the lead of a city's article if either it is an official language in the city, it was an official language for hundreds years. We do not provide additional names because of minorities living there, it is especially true if the very existence and identity of the minority is disputed. Alex Bakharev (talk) 09:48, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

You know, we can just scrap other languages in leads altogether for the Balkans. As this entire episode has shown, it leads nowhere. BalkanFever 10:34, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

support - I've always said this is the only way.--Laveol ^T 10:46, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Don't know when this became a vote :), but I'm sure there are others who have been long time fans of this, apart from us. BalkanFever 11:14, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

I say YES. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· (talk) 11:43, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Nope, not a vote - I simply had to express it in some way. And mind you I come from the country that has territorial claims on all of its neighbours (at least nominally per San Stefano Bulgaria). --Laveol ^T 13:34, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

The same goes for me. Go damn New Zealand separatists. BalkanFever 13:43, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

We all know that the other languages wont be scrapped. But, if the linguistic opinion is that the language is macedonian why can macedonian or macedonian slavic be posted? PMK1 (talk) 08:33, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

User:DSuran and the issue of "Sikh"

User:DSuran has been attempting to edit the IPKF article to try to portray it as a predominantly "Sikh" Force, and/or as a sperate entity from the rest of the "Indian" forces in the IPKF, subsequently labeling the Sikh units as Special Forces, and has deleted the Hindi script from the article lead and ifobox. All his edits are factually blatantly wrong, and smacks of Sikh Nationalism, and is moreover very PoV. Can somebody please have a look since I am do not wish to deal with this if I introduce my own biases. rueben_lys (talk · contribs) 11:44, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

It appears that this is related to Sri Lanka. Have you tried bringing it up at the talkpage of Wikipedia:WikiProject Sri Lanka Reconciliation? --Elonka 15:00, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

The issue in my opinion is not anything to do with Sri Lanka at all. It is more to do with views on Sikh/Punjabi contribution to the Indian forces etc and can be pushed on to "righting historical wrongs". Have a look at Dsuran's earlier edits. I wrote half the page (if not more) on the IPKF, and the references listed in the bottom are mostly journal articles or reliable websources on the Indian military. DSuran, on the other hand, has only ever edited or made unreferenced edits making generalising and factually wrong content that attempted to portray the IPKF as a "Sikh force", or the Sikh Light Infantry as a force seperate from the Indian Army, and now that it is a "Special Force". His last edit was inclusion of Punjabi text to the name for IPKF (which I think is to redress the seeming bias of having hindi text there).The bias I hope will be self-evident. Also see IPKF history for a previous edit conflict with DSuran to see what I am saying. rueben_lys (talk · contribs) 16:23, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

I'll take a look. You may also wish to look through the steps at Dealing with disruptive editors and dispute resolution. --Elonka 20:10, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Anti-Americanism

Content Problem: The anti-Americanism article labels people as anti-American who don't accept that label for themselves. Typically, it does this to people of cultures who aren't equally represented on Wikipedia. It has a section that consists almost entirely of calling people of other cultures anti-American. There is no way there would be a consensus on any of the "Regional Attitudes" section if the people being labeled in those sections were equally represented hereon the English Wikipedia. The article labels these cultures explicitly, and also implicitly by discussing aspects of the cultures in the context of anti-Americanism. It also gives undue (exclusive) weight to the position that the term "anti-Americanism" depicts prejudice in a meaningful way; the article itself says the term may be propaganda. At times, it reads like a laundry list of what anybody has ever called anti-American. Examples:

European anti-Americanism well predates the invasion of Iraq and the Bush Administration, with criticisms of American "hegemonism", the coining of the term "hyperpuissance", and the dream of making the EU a "counterbalance" to the United States all flaring up in the '90s. The usual criticisms were also levied, that America was enforcing sanctions against Iraq for oil, and attributing sinister motives to the bombing of the Chinese embassy in Serbia.[53] French anti-americanism predates the founding of the United States with the belief that it was a barbaric land and all who went there also degenerated.[54]

The Middle East region has been a focal point of much anti-American sentiment in the latter decades of the 20th century and the beginning of the 21st, often blamed on specific U.S. policies in the region, particularly its close relationship with Israel and its stance on such matters as Sudan's civil war and Darfur. However, some argue that the real roots lay in government policy as reflected in state-directed media. By this reasoning, America is blamed for failed systems in the Middle East, as a means of re-directing internal dissent outwards, towards what Osama Bin Ladin has called "the far enemy", America, instead of at indigenous regimes.

(Note: the above paragraph is entirely unsourced.)

Cultural anti-Americanism in the Middle East may have its origins with Sayyid Qutb, an influential Egyptian author, who Paul Berman titled "the Philosopher of Islamic Terror".[59] Qutb, the leading intellectual of the Muslim Brotherhood, studied in Greely, Colorado, from 1948-50, and wrote a book, The America I Have Seen based on his impressions. In it he decried everything in American from individual freedom and taste in music to Church socials and haircuts,[60].

(The above leads to an enormous quote from Qutb, followed by more extensive quoting of Paul Hollander explaining how this shows all Middle Easterners are anti-American)

In Latin America, anti-American sentiment has deep roots dating back to the 1830s and the Texas Revolution.[69]Other significant 19th century events which led to a rise in anti-American sentiment were the 1846-1848 Mexican-American War, in which Mexico lost almost half of its territory to the US, the 1855 American intervention in Nicaragua and the Spanish-American War of 1898 - which turned Cuba into a virtual dependency of the United States.[70][71][72]Perceived racist attitudes of the white Anglo-Saxon Protestants of the north towards the populations of South America also caused resentment.[73]In the twentieth century American support for the 1954 coup in Guatemala against Jacobo Arbenz Guzmán, the United States embargo against Cuba, the 1964 Brazilian coup d'état, Operation Condor, the 1973 Chilean coup d'état, the Salvadoran Civil War, the support of the Contras and the refusal to extradite a terrorist, continued to fuel anti-Americanism in the region.[74][75][76]Similarly, U.S. support for dictators such as Augusto Pinochet, Anastasio Somoza, Alfredo Stroessner has influenced regional attitudes.[77]Fidel Castro the revolutionary leader of Cuba has throughout his career tried to co-ordinate long standing South American resentments against the USA through military and propagandist means.[78][79]

Solution: "Anti-American" tends to be a negative term applied by outsiders to others. It suggests prejudice. Furthermore, it tends to be applied by one culture (Americans and their allies) to other cultures (French, Middle Easterners, etc.). As such, it is not neutral for Wikipedia to state or imply what is anti-American and what is not. The term itself has a strong connection to propaganda, as the article itself suggests. So, the article should not consist of a long list of what people have called anti-American (sourced or not). That runs the risk of promoting the propaganda. The mere idea of a "Region Attitudes" section carries the implication that it is appropriate for Wikipedia to be telling readers which cultures are anti-American and which are not. Since the article violates neutrality blatantly, and since there is undue weight problem as well as many particular violations, I think the best approach is to shorten the article. The most potentially neutral part is the discussion of the way the term is used; the rest should be dramatically shortened and/or brought into balance.

Behavior Problem: The other two editors disagree with this analysis and refuse to discuss it. They have disrupted informal mediation, refused formal mediation, refused a truce, argued against arbitration, and explicitly stated an intention not to discuss any of these problems with me. Right now, it's a slow-moving edit war. Life.temp (talk) 12:25, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Notified: Marksel [12], who immediately deleted the notice from his Talk page, Colin4C [13], and Henrik [14]. Life.temp (talk) 22:06, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

A typical instance of a fundamentally uncollaborative approach: After I left notices on the editor Talk pages, Marksel deleted his and told Henrik he's undoing all my edits without discussion: "At this point, I'm generally reverting LT on sight. I do check the edits; it's the same troll pattern." [15]. Life.temp (talk) 22:52, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Life.temp has been blocked indefinitely by David Gerard as a returning sockpuppet of an indefinitely blocked editor. Durova^Charge! 19:29, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

That doesn't resolve the problems with cultural bias in the article. So, I took out the "resolved" marker. Hope I did it right.

Persian Gulf

Resolved.

Background:

The Persian Gulf, in the Southwest Asian region, is an extension of the Indian Ocean located between Iran and the Arabian Peninsula. It is the most commonly referred-to name by most nation-states and NGO and has been for quite some time. However, an alternative name, Arabian Gulf has also ben present for an equally long time and is in use today by citizens of many Arab nations. This has lef to significant conflict in the RW, as noted by the wiki-article, Persian Gulf naming dispute.

Conflict

A vehement discussion regarding the inclusion (not replacement) of the alternative name in the Lead has been ongoing and unproductive. Edit-warring has resulted in blocks and warnings, resulting in the article being dispute-locked since March of this year. The locking admin advised that once a consensus was reached, to contact him regarding the unlocking of the article. To date, no one has, as there is no consensus for the addition of the alternative name. MedCab was enlisted to help negotiate a compromise and break the stalemate, without success. The case has been silent since May 8. The proposed working solution:

The Persian Gulf, in the Southwest Asian region, is an extension of the Arabian Sea located between Iran and the Arabian Peninsula. It is sometimes controversially referred to as the Arabian Gulf by Arab countries or The Gulf, although neither terms are recognized internationally.}}

had not met with any amount of success, though endorsed by both the mediator and the some of the parties.
The dispute is mostly factionalized along cultural and ethnic lines. Editors with a leaning towards excluding the Arabian Gulf alternative name usually tend to be either anti-Arabian or pro-Persian. Editors opting for inclusion are mostly either pro-Arab or anti-Iranian. There is also a small group of editors who are apolitical and still support the inclusion of the alternative name. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 19:02, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

• I may be listed in your books as a "Pro-Persian" editor, but indeed "Arabian Gulf" and the euphemism "The Gulf" are used often enough to warrant inclusion to the lead. We might also provide a link to the Persian Gulf naming dispute. I also noticed that you have changed Indian Ocean into Arabian Sea. While both are technically true the frequency of using of "Arabian" in the lead will be somehow too high. Maybe we should keep Indian Ocean? I propose:

The Persian Gulf, in the Southwest Asian region, is an extension of the Indian Ocean located between Iran and the Arabian Peninsula. It is sometimes controversially referred to as the Arabian Gulf or The Gulf, although neither terms are recognized internationally.

I suggest to move the discussion to the talk page of the article and unless reasonable oposing arguments are found made a pretected edit Alex Bakharev (talk) 02:50, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

• • I have looked into the mediation and the most supported version was Wikipedia:Mediation_Cabal/Cases/2007-12-14_Persian_Gulf#5:

• • I would personally prefer to refer to the Persian Gulf naming dispute, but Iit is better to follow the community preferences here. Thus, I suggest to make an editprotect as discussed above Alex Bakharev (talk) 03:08, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

I have implemented a slightly modified version of the working solution, and unprotected the page. Further discussion can go at Talk:Persian Gulf#Unprotected - compromise. Khoikhoi 05:52, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Cool. Here's to hoping it lasts. Yay, ECCN! :) - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 17:46, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Sambalpuri/Kosali (India)

The article on Sambalpuri/Kosali, a region in the Orissa state of India, could benefit from a few more neutral eyes. It seems to be the product of a single editor and efforts to improve the English and make the article more encyclopedic are met with wholesale reverts. Every part of the article could use attention, starting with the title. The follow links suggest the primary editor’s motivations: here and here. Aramgar (talk) 16:56, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

This appears to be a case of WP:OWN, and I agree with you, the article is a mess. Not only that, but we apparently already have a Sambalpur article, and I can't even figure out from the intro what is going on. "The term 'Sambalpuri' takes into account the vast geographical and culturally homogeneous area of Western Orissa, which is also known as Koshal/Kosala." This is not how an article should start out, and the rest of the page contains unecessary lists (including a very long one about the towns many different festivals). The creator of this article should be explained the policies of Wikipedia (WP:RS is an important one in this case). But first off I would start off with a merge suggestion to the Sambalpur article. Many of the information he has added appears to be based on original research - he failed to cite any sources for this entire article. Anyways, per WP:AFG, I would give him a very long explanation on his talk page about Wikipedia's policies and guidelines, and why the article he created does not follow any of them. So far, I only see two vandalism warnings there. If he refuses to cooperate, I would list the article at WP:AFD. Khoikhoi 03:37, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Byzantium

I would appreciate some tips how to deal with that problem. Some users (including me) reverted edits like this one as it appeared to be vandalism, and now disputes flared up like the one mentioned above and User_talk:Jons63/Archive_1#Byzantium (already archieved). I would be grateful for your opinions, →Christian.И 13:40, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure I want to get into the details of this dispute, but this comment by the anonymous, Turkish (I presume) IP [16] ("I wıll ask you one last tıme, revert the entry to correct Byzantıum flag or I wıll pursue cıvıl rıghts vıolatıons agaınst you ın a court of law") is totally unacceptable and a violation of our policy on legal threats. --Folantin (talk) 13:54, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Update: That particular issue has been dealt with. Details here [17]. --Folantin (talk) 14:32, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Definition of "diaspora"

I've got a question about the Romanian diaspora article - see also the recent edit history. What exactly defines a diaspora? Specifically, with regard to Ukraine, here is the situation. In the 2001 census there, 150,989 declared as Romanian and 258,619 as Moldovan. However, Romanian sources consider both (self-declared Romanians and self-declared Moldovans) to be Romanians. Examples: [18] ("Over 400,000 Romanians live in Ukraine.") [19] ("According to the 2002 census, the Romanian minority in Ukraine numbers 410,000 members.") [20] ("Over 400,000 ethnic Romanians live in Ukraine according to the 2001 census.")
I'm being stopped from making a note of that, but why not? Sure, they call themselves Moldovans, and we should say that, but Romanians see no difference between the two groups. Surely some solution (a footnote?) can be found. Biruitorul ^Talk 00:15, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

• I have put a foot note to the table with some explanations. Would it be sufficient? Usually the self-identification is the main criteria, the opinions of their supposed home states is of much lesser importance Alex Bakharev (talk) 02:43, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
  • It's a step in the right direction. However, the Saxons and Swabians in Germany self-identify as German (but were born in Romania), while the Timok Vlachs of the Serbian Banat (distinct from the Romanians of Vojvodina) identify as Vlachs, not as Romanians. So you see, there's no compelling reason not to have the note right up above. It informs readers of their existence and the fact that Romania claims them as part of the diaspora, while at the same time making note of their self-identity. (And as an aside, even though we can't speculate with certainty, it's quite likely the self-declared Moldovans do participate in the same sorts of activities the self-declared Romanians do, like taking Romanian-language classes.) Biruitorul ^Talk 04:44, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

"Welfare State" Article IS Overly American-Flavored

I'll try to make sense of that! The article in question, dealing with the general concept of a Welfare state, has a POV that goes all over the map - but it is especially overburdened by a libertarian/conservative perspective which cites very few references. In trying to counter that viewpoint, others have countered the criticism... so now, the article is a MESS, to put it mildly. It's a battle of sides adding more flame to the fire, instead of snuffing the fire out - so instead of achieving any sort of NPOV, all that the editors are achieving is an increase in the size of the article, and increased confusion to any reader who might genuinely want to learn something from the page.

By "overly American-Flavored" - the majority of the point/counterpoint material is comparative - basically, comparing every OTHER situation in other countries to the United States situation. Not only that, all figures of monetary value are in US dollars - and some figures and graphs are horribly ambiguous, confusing, or downright wrong! I guess it has to be seen to be appreciated.

I thought about doing some editing myself; then, I knew that it would be a mistake to do it on my own - because I live in the United States, for one! Not only that, I do have a pretty strong left-leaning POV when it comes to the material, and so I might not be the best to do it.

In my opinion, there is one major thing that would improve the article; deleting several major sections. It's too long, and like I said, it's longggg because of the back-and-forthness of the material between sides. Thanks to anyone who takes a look at this. Dmodlin71 (talk) 04:25, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

• I am not sure there is a strong ethnic underlying for the possible conflicts around the article. It does not look like Americans against Europeans but rather the libertarians against the socialists (or the conservatives against the liberals). Maybe it is worth to ask Wikipedia:WikiProject Sociology or Wikipedia:WikiProject Politics for help? Alex Bakharev (talk) 12:36, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Obama

I wrote in the discussion area for Obama that he is not African American, he had a white mother and a black father, but everyone calls him African American. This is Bias, one sided opinionated nonsense and I am surprised Wikipedia would allow such a racist issue to go on. He is not African American. Why do half African Americans always insist they are full African American? Please just say he has African American Blood for goodness sakes.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.112.222.247 (talk) 6 July 2008

I'm not sure what the above apparent WP:SPA IP editor means by taking the complaint to this forum. The editor has made, and reverted after deletion, racially inflammatory statements in at least a couple article talk pages: accusing Wikipedia of running "bias one sided BS" [sic] for using term "African American" to describe Barack Obama[21], and engaging in a peculiar Godwin's Law-like argument involving repeated use of the N-word to make a minor unrelated point in the l33t article.[22] Seems to accuse me of racism, vandalism, censorship, etc., for my removing the comments. There have been extensive discussions and a strong consensus on adopting the common terminology "African American" to describe Barack Obama's ethnic heritage. Because of some reasonable concerns, as well as stray complaints, fringe material, racial anger, soap-boxing, etc., the editors on that page describe this issue in the FAQ section. The editor posting this comment seems to have a problem with it and wants to leave a rant on the talk page to call things BS, but does not seem to offer any kind of constructive attempt to edit the encyclopedia. The Obama talk page is volatile and has been subject to repeated insertions of the N-word from IP editors, so racially inflammatory rants are a problem I believe should be summarily removed. Wikidemo (talk) 11:02, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

We usually follow the self-identification of a person. Obama seems to consider himself African-American despite having also the Anglo-Saxon and Arabic heritages. Alex Bakharev (talk) 13:50, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Precisely, if he considers himself African-American, let it go at that. My own kids are half-Thai, so I have some experience in this area of mixed heritage people. — Rlevse • Talk • 00:11, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Flemish vs. Dutch

Hello. The user HP1740-B denies the existence of a Flemish ethnicity and states that Flemish people are of Dutch ethnicity. He removed all content from Flemish (linguistics) with the edit summary "what it should be", and he's always reverting to his version of Dutch (ethnic group) and Flemish people. I can't find any information stating that a Flemish ethnicity doesn't exist. He always arguments that he has sources (two books; I'm not going to buy a book to see what they say). SPQRobin (talk) 19:11, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

I do not base myself on 2 books, as anyone will see I base myself on a wide array of sources. This user continually confuses nations with ethnic groups, as does the article which I thoroughly revised and am going to revise further.HP1740-B (talk) 19:13, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Merger of the Celebrations of September 11 to the Reactions to September 11 article

Resolved. No action taken by anyone. Of course. This noticeboard is pointless.

Multiple pro-Palestine editors are working in a coordinated manner to squash this merger. User:Pedrito has even gone as far as to label attempts to merge material into the target article as "slurring Palestinians". I have placed a warning on his page that this is not useful as we discuss this merge but his friend User:Nickhh has stepped up to support him in his tendentious behavior. He is also trying to circumvent local discussion by shopping his opinion on other noticeboards then suggesting that involved editors should not have a say in the discussion at RSN. I'm trying to do my best but when faced with suggestions of racism, it is really difficult to work with these folks. The relevant talk page is: [23] Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 13:55, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Respectfully, I'm not sure I can agree with your depiction of a Palestinian nationalist cabal working against the neutral editors' consensus. As Nsk92 noted on 12 July, "In view of the results of the new poll and of the recently closed AfD Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Reactions to the September 11, 2001 attacks, it is clear that there is a substantial consensus for the merge. So, although I personally disagree with those favoring the merge, the RfC should now be closed and a merge should be affected." Please note that AFD was closed by User:Sandstein who is hardly a Palestinian nationalist! <eleland/talkedits> 01:36, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Taxila

The Taxila article presently has a pro-pakistani annon editor (several actualy) constantly changing "Ancient India, modern Pakistan" to just "Ancient Pakistan". The editor also removes india from several other spots ont he pages, tags, categories. Several editors have reverted but the perticular editor has the tendency to leave derogitory comments on anyone talk page accusing them of being "islamaphobic and pro western". If someone can assist with this content dispute. Knowledgeum (talk) 15:42, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Lidia Bastianich

Bastianich is an Istrian-born American chef who specializes in Italian cuisine and publicly identifies herself as an Italian. A persistent IP editor is disrupting the article to claim that she is Croatian, despite having any sources to back up this claim. The editor has been at it for months, and I'm getting tired of reverting him. I've tried to discuss this on the talk page but still have not seen any sources about her ethnicity. Note that this is the same editor who has left trolling remarks on the talk page, poking fun at the subject's physical appearance[24]. Can someone step in here?--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 04:01, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Arabistan, Iranian Arabs and Racism in the Middle East

Assistance is required regarding the Arabistan Article. As part of an ongoing ethnic dispute between Arabs and Persians, my attempt to create have an article based on facts has been met with opposition which does not seem too interested in constructive discussion. This also extends to the articles of Khuzestan, Iranian Arabs and Racism in the Middle East. I have already been forced to request Wikiquette intervention with regards to one particularly uncivil editor. Editors which have been involved are User:BehnamFarid, User:CreazySuit and possibly User:Farmanesh as well. MiS-Saath (talk) 05:32, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

MiS-Saath, you appear to have been spamming this message (or a variety of it) across several noticeboards. Comments such as these are exactly why we have policies such as WP:NOTBATTLEGROUND. Please read WP:DR more carefully, and once you make an attempt to get a consensus with your fellow editors, then you can come back and ask for the opinion of a third party. But please don't jump the gun here and refrain from mass-reverting across multiple pages. At a quick glance of the Arabistan article, it appears that it has been a disambiguation page for about a year. It is nice that you are being bold in this instance, but since it looks like there's a great deal of opposition to your changes, I would recommend that you don't make any more controversial changes without a clear consensus to do so. In fact, I'm going to go ahead and protect the above pages you've mentioned. Khoikhoi 06:44, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Hello Khoikhoi. i was forced to use DR as i believed discussion was futile. for the overwhelming most part, i was not engaged in talk pages nor was i engaged in a civil manner and in all circumstances (no exception). in ALL said cases, discussion with regards to the actual merits or lack thereof did not take place. no serious discussion regarding the reliability of UNPO took place, nor did any discussion regarding the merits of the Arabistan disambiguation (such a discussion DID take place with an uninvolved editor, who quickly backed up). With that considered, i believe that the prospects of a consensus are very dim and thus i turned to this forum as the (currently sole) form of 'formal' resolution. i also reject the term 'spamming' applied to this message - i've posted it to two wikipedia groups who might be interested in the conflict. I'm unhappy with your decision to protect the pages. furthermore, i did not mass-revert and strictly adhered to 3RR, so no edit war took place. MiS-Saath (talk) 07:01, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

In short, the call for consensus does not override WP:V and WP:RS, which was quite disrespected in the conduit regarding those articles. MiS-Saath (talk) 07:03, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

P.S. with regards to your claims about the Arabistan article, please use Talk:Arabistan to discuss the merits of the disambiguation. the stability issue has been discussed there. this is not the appropriate forum for it. If you do that, that would make you the first involved editor to actually engage the issue of the quality of the disambiguation. MiS-Saath (talk) 07:09, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

MiS-Saath, if I recall correctly, all of these disputes started only today. Instead of trying to achieve a consensus yourself you immediately went to several noticeboard‎s asking for help. Yes, you did indeed leave comments on the talk page. That's a start. But the fact that you continued to revert did not make things any easier. A better way to go about solving conflicts is to revert only when necessary. See The BRD process:

1. Boldly make the desired change to the page.
2. Wait until someone reverts your change or makes another substantial edit. DO NOT revert this change!
3. If a disagreement arises, gracefully back down a bit, and explain and discuss your reasoning with the reverter and consider their different views too (don't go for discussion with too many people at once). Once you reach agreement, start the cycle again by making the agreed change.

If I hadn't protected the pages, would the edit warring have stopped? I highly doubt it. And simply because you adhered to 3RR does not mean that an edit war did not take place, see Wikipedia:Edit war. When I mean "mass-reverting", I am talking about reverting across multiple articles. Khoikhoi 08:29, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Very well, it's just that the third step was impossible to accomplish as no talk was started. no one so far (including you!) have engaged any of the statements in the talk pages in a constructive manner! the only response i recieved was 'this is a disambiguation page' and 'UNPO is not a reliable source'. no one bothered to explain why arabistan is inherently a disambiguation page and/or address the claims made in the talk page, and likewise no one bothered to explain why UNPO is not a reliable source, challange its posting to the RS noticeboard or engage in discussion about it. therefore, the BRD process was unachieveable in these circumstances. MiS-Saath (talk) 08:39, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm not involved in any of the disputes you've mentioned, so I don't see any reason why I would be making any comments on those talk pages. You might try leaving a note on the users talk page explaining yourself and inviting them to engage in the discussion in the talk page. If they don't respond, then you can go to a third party or try other methods. Khoikhoi 08:42, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

I already referred editors to talk pages. using edit summaries for example, with the words 'see talk page' or 'join active conversation in talk page please'. I assume people know how to read. for example:

03:55, 4 August 2008 (hist) (diff) Arabistan‎ (Undid revision 229650164 by CreazySuit (talk) this is the last time before i turn to DR. this is NOT a POV fork. the talk is active - join it!) 21:03, 3 August 2008 (hist) (diff) Arabistan‎ (Undid revision 229642268 by CreazySuit (talk) rv well sourced article with disucssion. please join discussion before reverting). I don't think that i have to beg them to talk back to me. MiS-Saath (talk) 08:51, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

This is purely a content dispute where the user has been putting non-historically correct data in the Arabistan page. I have responded to him in the talkpage of Arabistan and have shown that UNPO fabricates its own material for political purposes. --Nepaheshgar 12:31, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

The primary source for the Arabistan article was a Journal of Iranian Studies article. the UNPO is a secondary source. There actually is an even better article, called 'Arabistan or Khuzistan', though i can't access it. if anyone manages to access it and shows that it refutes the existance of the emirate, i'm more than willing to back off my claims. MiS-Saath (talk) 13:34, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

This process seems to be a failure. Few users engage me constructively and address the issues i present in talk pages, without first reverting sourced material and not following procedure when i am. i regret to say that i'm forced to take it into formal mediation, wikipedia is not owned by a group of editors and while it has to echo the persian position, even as a dominant one, it still needs to leave place for alternative opinions. the attempt to stifle UNPO's human rights work record is inappropriate for an encyclopedia. MiS-Saath (talk) 14:01, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

I've taken a quick look at the dispute, and although I must admit I don't fully understand the dispute, and I'm not very well-read on the Arab-Persian political conflict in Khuzestan/Arabistan, I think I can offer at least some help.

First of all, Arabistan should stay a disambiguation page, conforming to the normal style for dab pages. The real locus of the dispute is the article Khūzestān Province, and related articles like Politics of Khūzestān Province, Politics of Khūzestān Province, Origin of the name Khuzestan and Iranian Arabs. Even if improper decisions are being made on that article, it is not appropriate to try and sidestep the issue by adding the information to Arabistan. There is only one geographical area at issue here, and it is properly discussed by the page Khūzestān Province (which is properly named by WP:NAME policy, as it is the official name of the area, and the most common name in English-language sources.) The argument that the page Arabistan should be a page for the word "Arabistan" is a non-starter.

However, there appears to be a very unhealthy atmosphere on the article Khuzestan Province, which may have contributed to the problem of POV forking. All editors must accept that relevant information which is cited to reliable sources cannot be removed simply on the basis that it is false or "propaganda." Edits like this and [25] are not acceptable. User:BehnamFarid appears to be show classic signs of a nationalist problem editor; see User_talk:MiS-Saath#On_the_Khuzestan_Province.

In the broader coverage of Khuzestan/Arabistan across Wikipedia, there seem to be possible issues of neutrality, WP:UNDUE weight, and the avoidance of WP:ORiginal research, including synthesis of sources to advance a position. For example, Origin of the name Khuzestan appears designed to advance the position that Khuzestan is the original, correct name, and Arabistan the new, usurping name. Regardless of whether this is an accurate assessment, we need actual academic sources that say this, not a collection of ancient documents which are claimed to prove this. The interpretation of ancient primary sources is well beyond the remit of Wikipedia editors. There is too much room for error or selectivity, and virtually no editors have the ability to check these sources and WP:Verify the claim. We can only pass on what scholars and academics - ie, secondary sources - have said on the subject. If they have said nothing about the subject, we cannot write any article at all.

Editors must also accept that Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, U.S. State Department reports, and reports from United Nations agencies are considered top-grade sources. When they raise concerns about human rights in Khuzestan, they certainly can be cited, and they should be given proportionally large weight. This is not to say that criticism or counter-claims should be ommitted, but I am very concerned to see paragraphs like this:

Contrary to the arguments put forward by human rights groups, Arabic is taught in all public schools throughout the country [26] as a mandatory subject. This despite the fact that 97%-98% of Iranians are not ethnically Arabic speakers. [27]

This is a straightforward original synthesis of sources; two sources which have nothing to do with human rights groups' statements on Iran are being used to "disprove" their statements. If officials of the Iranian government - or any reliable sources - have refuted the claims of human rights groups, both sets of claims should be cited, and framed as a dispute between two groups.

For another example, the demographic composition of Khuzestan is not given anywhere in its article. It is briefly mentioned that the Iranian government does not take censuses there, in the context of an unrelated discussion. However, I find several strong human rights sources placing the Arab population in a clear majority - something like 70%. These estimates should be cited, and not buried in sub-sections either. Even if the demographics of Khuzestan were not a key issue of contention, articles on national sub-divisions generally have a top-level "demographics" section anyway. Such a section should probably exist in this article. Again, if Iran disputes the demographic estimates, their figures should certainly be cited as well.

Again, I don't fully understand either the on-Wiki or the off-Wiki conflict, and nobody should take my statement here as an endorsement of a particular position. However, Wikipedia's content policies are important and should be understood and followed. <eleland/talkedits> 18:03, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

I disagree. Amnesty and UNPO are not sites for history, geography and etc. Some of these sites don't even have authors with any serious academic degrees. For example I have written something on the history of Khuzestan here: [28] all backed up by sources. Where does amnesty gets its version of history from? It is not a verifiable site for history. As per census, I know the area well and again has amnesty done any census work? I can name most of the cities and it is only the SW portion of Khuzestan which is largely Arabic speaking. Anyhow, I have my Arabic textbooks from Iran and Arabic language is not banned, but mandatory. So if amnesty blatantly lies that Arabic is banned, while the Iranian government has made it a mandatory subject and has t.v. stations in the language, then it should not be used in Wikipedia. We don't have to wait for the Iranian government to issue a rebuke to amnesty. Or take UNPO for example. They claim the name Khuzestan was adopted in 1936! Despite the fact that there is more than enough historical evidence that is not so: [29]. Or the author claims there was an independent kingdom in the area, yet we can see all the maps from the Qajar era show it as part of Persia. It is simply best to resolve content dispute in their talkpage and the user who initiated this did not do any serious research into the topic. This is in the end a content dispute and can be resolved through individual talk pages. --Nepaheshgar 19:49, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

On the point user:Eleland brought up. For example, I refer to the Iranian constitution:[30] and I quote:Article 16 [Arabic Language]. Since the language of the Koran and Islamic texts and teachings is Arabic, and since Persian literature is thoroughly permeated by this language, it must be taught after elementary level, in all classes of secondary school and in all areas of study. Now if amnesty international wrongly states that Arabic is banned (while I have my Arabic textbooks), and the Iranian government does not take amnesty seriously (even serious enough to respond to it), then why should users not have the correct information? Arabic is a mandatory subject. Amnesty gets some of its information from political organizations whose main ideology is simply to separate a piece of land from Iran. These organizations, many times (not all the times) provide bogus reports with regards to history, geography, demography and human rights. Has amnesty ever bothered to check that Arabic is not banned in Iran and is a mandatory subject? Or the fact that there is local media in the language? It will just go with what these organizations state and in the end we have a report with no author and no academic credentials. As per census in Khuzestan, there is none, but one can get a relative figure from different cities. --Nepaheshgar 20:10, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

All these are content disputes and users after editing one day on topic can not go directly to conflict noticeboard.s They should discuss contents on the discussion page. --Nepaheshgar 20:15, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Eleland - my version of the wording was in no way hiding the source of the allegations. it explicitly stated that UNPO alleges those discriminations. there's a concentrated objection to UNPO being used as a source, something which should surprise no one because its position is in stark contrast to the iranian government. however, i contend that it has enough notability and human rights record to deserve having its claims echoed on various article but even that is hotly contested, perhaps because it exposes a view which is discomforting to many editors. i believe the campaign against using UNPO as a source for citing its own list of alleged human rights violations is very well within the boundaries of wikipedia. Since you're not familiar with the subject, i think a good analogy is the claims by COHRE, BADIL and adalah with regards to israeli policy. MiS-Saath (talk) 05:06, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

As for the arabistan disambiguation, i think the other meanings have no merit in an english wikipedia as its use is extremely archaic if existant at all. If you think it does not deserve an article of its own, that's fine with me, if Arabistan would redirect to Khuzestan and a hatnote added to khuzestan article 'Arabistan redirects here. you may have been looking for 'Saudi Arabia' or 'Arabian Peninsula. However, with the problem of inserting even that detail into the Khuzestan article, we can't progress much. MiS-Saath (talk) 05:09, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Also to prevent posible misrepresentation - the UNPO is not formally affiliated with the UN, despite having 'UN' in its name. However, it has been party to several UN human right workshops and has close relations with it in various issues. MiS-Saath (talk) 05:13, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Eleland, considering the points you've brought up above, and in case we cannot reach a compromise that acts upon presenting both views, what is the possible recourse for resolution of this conflict? MiS-Saath (talk) 05:56, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

• I shall be relatively brief, as I have already wasted too much of my time on this utterly senseless and contrived problem. As I have already indicated in several other places, I am mystified by the actions of User:MiS-Saath. What are User:MiS-Saath's motivations for so avidly interfering with issues about which she demonstrably knows absolutely nothing? I believe that the onus is on User:MiS-Saath to clarify her interests here. I should like to combine this issue with the rude and baseless assertion by User:Eleland, made here-above, that I appeared to show "classic signs of a nationalist problem editor"; for this baseless accusation I expect an unequivocal apology from User:Eleland. It is remarkable that both User:Eleland and User:MiS-Saath are rich in their dictions (extremely rich), but poor (extremely poor) in their use of logic (to quote the King in Shakespeare's Hamlet, Though this be madness, yet there is method in't.). On last Sunday, User:MiS-Saath wrote the following to me [31]:

The amount of material i've written on wikipedia with relation to iranian subjects is also totally irrelevant. i could be an iranologist, or i could be the village idiot, it doesn't matter - As long as my writing adheres to the rules of wikipedia, in particular with regards to important guidelines in areas of friction such as WP:V and WP:RS, is to stand by itself detached from whoever wrote it. [...] I would be willing to concede if you give me a reasonable historical authority which rejects the existence of such an emirate in the early 20's. I will of course re-insert this information as a debated fact if i manage to find a serious historical authority which asserts the existence of this entity.

The statements are clear enough (though mostly utterly devoid of logical consistency) and speak for themselves. The essence of the supposed argument by User:MiS-Saath seems to be that the burden of proof rests on me, to prove that there has not been an Arab emirate in Khuzestan in the early 1920s. In other words, even though User:MiS-Saath is in possession of no document proving the existence of an Arab emirate inside the internationally-recognized borders of Iran, she demands from me to prove lack of existence of such an entity. As any student of logic should know, proving a negative is in general impossible. I can prove that a pencil is on my desk, but I cannot prove that there is no pencil somewhere in my study (read the celebrated philosophical discussions on this very same issue that took place between Betrrand Russell and Ludwig Wittgenstein). Aside from this, what is that obliges User:MiS-Saath to come up with such a demand? Why does she not come up with a positive proof that such an Arab emirate exited inside Iran in the early 1920s? I see madness played out before my eyes, and for some stange reasons have to waste my precious time to call a spade a spade. Is it not evident that what User:MiS-Saath says amounts to sophistry?!

Now I wish to make a detour, and do something along the lines of User:MiS-Saath's practice. I take this liberty because firstly I am aware that User:MiS-Saath is a resident of Israel (and I have told this to User:MiS-Saath already on the occasion of my first encounter with her), and secondly because I have personally a considerably close bond with the Jewish community; I can therefore not be accused be being anti-Israel and anti-Semitic. Here is an article by the celebrated theoretical physicist Guilio Racah (of the Racah coefficients in group theory and atomic physics), entitled "On the self-energy of the electron": [32], published in 1946. The affiliation given on this article is: "The Hebrew University, Jerusalem, Palestine" ("Palestine" is explicitly mentioned on all the pre-1949 papers by Racah, as can be verified here: [33]). The following article by Guilio Racah, entitled "On the Decomposition of Tensors by Contraction": [34], is published in 1949. The affiliation given on this paper is: "Einstein Institute of Physics, The Hebrew University, Jerusalem, Israel." As the Wikipedia entry concerning Israel indicates, the partition of Jerusalem into Arab and Israeli sections, proposed by the UN in 1947, was rejected by the Arab League, but on 14 May 1948, the Jewish provisional government declared Israel's independence. Two questions that I should like to ask from User:MiS-Saath and User:Eleland, who brazenly called me a "problem editor" and accused me of showing "classic signs of nationalism", are the following: First, what happened to Palestine? Second, is Jerusalem part of Palestine or Israel? Following these questions, I should like to ask whether these esteemed editors approve of the action of an utter outsider editing the Wikipedia entries concerning Israel and Jerusalem, indicating that Jerusalem is part of Palestine on account of the above-mentioned papers by Guilio Racah? After all, the papers that I cited above are published in one of the most prominent journals of physics on the global level. Will they also show "the classic signs of nationalism" as I am accused of showing, or will they welcome the mentioned edits?

I close my discussions by quoting from Modern Iran: Roots and Results of Revolution by Nikki Keddie (Yale University Press, New Haven, 2003), pp. 84 and 85:

Regarding foreign investments, while Millspaugh and the Iranian government were eager to attract American capital, Great Britain, still the most influential power, wa