Wikipedia:AN
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Proposal to unblock Sceptre

(heheh, who thought I'd randomly done it without consensus from the title... :P)

On IRC Sceptre requested a reconsideration of his block, currently set at three months (to expire Dec 9) per this discussion. Sceptre would be restricted to editing only in work spaces directly related to article improvement and maintenance; He would not be allowed here at AN or any of the other boards. Unblock would be made with the understanding of all parties that violation of -space restrictions (without compelling reason)/gross incivility/puppetry, etc. would be grounds for quickly reinstating the block and considering indefinite. On a personal suggestion would recommend if accepted this parole remain until the end of the original block, to give Sceptre plenty of time to show he's clean and whatnot. Keep it low drama, hopefully. Discuss. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 13:54, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

In the interests of low drama, I have changed the heading to accurately reflect the content, I hope. Jehochman ^Talk 13:56, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Why has he gone from accepting the 3 month block (per his own transcluded comments at the top of the linked page) to wanting it, essentially, rescinded entirely? No judgement at all, just curious as to why he can't/won't wait it out? Fritzpoll (talk) 14:04, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

He's concerned about some of the low-traffic articles he edited going to hell (IP vandalism not reverted, et al.) Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 14:06, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

I think if he lets us know his concerns, then there are other editors in good standing who will watch the articles for him. I for one, would be happy to watchlist them and monitor the concerns he has. Fritzpoll (talk) 14:09, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I like Will and I think he has done a lot of good in the past, but I think he needs the break. He just needs to get enough distance to stop caring , at least temporarily. Guy (Help!) 14:08, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

(to Fritzpoll, after multiple E/C) It would not be rescinded entirely; he's specifically blocked from noticeboards, which are the area in which there was an issue with his editing. I'm undecided on the issue, but he does have a track record of significant article contribution. If he stays away from Wikidrama, I think it would be a net positive for all concerned. Horologium (talk) 14:10, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

I just think there's been a lot of discussion on this issue, and a consensus was reached. This matter won't be an issue once the block expires, and Sceptre returns refreshed. Another significant point is that the community must feel that its opinion, once expressed after a reasoned debate (and this one certainly seems to have been) and accepted by Sceptre, is taken into consideration and not continually re-considered. I like Sceptre, but I think the block has to stand Fritzpoll (talk) 14:15, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

There's a reason the block was three months instead of one. If he cares enough to reform himself, he'll care enough to wait. Wizardman 14:11, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

And the Sceptre ordeal goes on and on...I think the full duration of the block should be carried out; not only will it give him time to calm down, as JzG said, but it will also let other editors who became inflamed against him do this also. He's a fantastic editor, but a bit prone to being more of a zealot than anyone is comfortable with. A break will do him well. FusionMix 14:18, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

While I understand what you guys mean, blocks are per policy not meant for "cool down" or giving users "time to calm down". They are only for preventing disruption. If we put Sceptre on parole and he proves he won't go on rants at AN like he promises, then the wiki benefits and we're only blocking for personal reasons, not per policy. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 14:23, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

The three month block was a substitute for an indefinite block for sockpuppetry and harrassment, and followed reasoned debate with many good arguments presented. The policy is indeed that blocks are for prevention, but this block is preventative in the sense that "cooling down" will prevent, in the community's opinion (by the earlier consensus, or my reading of it) future occurrences. SO in a way, it *is* a cool down block, but it is also a preventative block. Fritzpoll (talk) 14:29, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't think that just because members of the community don't understand the blocking policy means we have to continue along that path... I can't vouch for their original intentions, but it seems clear to be now its punitive rather than preventative. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 14:38, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

No, nor can I vouch for them. I think my point was that this line of argument is on a very blurry line where punitive and preventative are indistinguishable. Consider someone who *isn't* Sceptre: they violate policy on several occasions, and are accordingly blocked for a lengthy period. If we follow the above to its logical conclusion, then we shouldn't block for increasing lengths of time (as we do in practice) because we can simply prevent the action by blocking for a short period of time, so our block on the hypothetical user could arguably be considered punitive rather than preventative. That seems to be the line you've followed, and I think it is discordant with current practice. In Sceptre's specific case, I think the block was well-debated and that we don't need to go into it again, with all the accompanying friction that generates - just let it ride out. Wikipedia will still be here in December. Fritzpoll (talk) 14:46, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Know your audience. I think most of us understand the policy perfectly well, and were prepared to accept the very unusual reduction from permanent bannination to a 3-month block for some pretty egregious violations, because we understand that Sceptre has a long history of doing good things. If he had voluntarily taken a break then there would be no controversy, the problem was that he could not keep away. I don't think most people will be comfortable letting him back before we have seen that he has broken the cycle of obsession with Wikipedia. Guy (Help!) 14:49, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't think we should be in the business of deciding whether someone is obsessed with Wikipedia... as per the block, we indefinite block people because it is clear (or should be clear) that they have no intention of ever contributing positively to the wiki; SPA accounts and whatnot. It's different for constructive users. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 14:55, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

David, we indefinitely block people for egregious sockpuppetry and block evasion. In Will's case we took the very unusual step of reducing the normal indefinite block to 3 months. His best course of action is to forget Wikipedia exists until December 9. From my personal experience, I would say that a lengthy "cold turkey" Wikibreak is the only kind that works; if you keep checking back and your edit finger keeps itching, you're not having a break and not breaking the cycle. Without a decently long break he will not cure burnout, he will come straight back in and escalate right back to where he was before, taking stuff too personally. Rather than imposing restrictions and having his detractors constantly snapping at his heels about them, it is much better, in my view, for Will to simply accept that he needs a break, and take one. Remember, his past refusal to accept this, and block evasion, is part of what got him here in the first place. Will is a good person whose good side has been eroded by the toxic side of Wikipedia's disputes, the only way I know to fix that is to stay away for an appreciable period, to the point where you no longer itch for your fix. Guy (Help!) 10:14, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

More important issue: article quality

It's a separate point, but could Sceptre (who I believe is watching this thread) post a list on his talkpage of the articles that he's worried about. The articles need to be maintained, and vandalism reverted, and I can do this right now without an unblock discussion Fritzpoll (talk) 15:02, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

His talk page is protected. spryde | talk 15:10, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

My bad - didn't notice that. Fritzpoll (talk) 15:13, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

It's protected at his own request because he was being trolled; he could easily request that it be unprotected. Thatcher 15:42, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Or even that it be semi-protected; all the trolling prior to protection was from either IPs or accounts that would have been stopped by semi-protection. GRBerry 15:56, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

• Unblocking Sceptre on the condition that he stay away from drama sounds reasonable. Blocks are not intended as a punishment, which Sceptre's is. The belief that making him wait will "prevent, in the community's opinion (by the earlier consensus, or my reading of it) future occurrences" is erroneous; however, Sceptre's desire to prevent future occurrences will. Matthew (talk) 15:10, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
• I'd support an unblock in conjunction with a ban from community noticeboards (with an exception for threads discussing Sceptre). I think this will prevent disruption, while allowing Sceptre to contribute positively, to Wikipedia. SHEFFIELDSTEEL^TALK 15:33, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
  • He's apologized for his trolling and sockpuppetry (not for what he percieves as disparate treatment with Kurt, but considering the whole point of unblocking him with these conditions is that he stays away from dramafests...) I just don't see what we lose. He other is a good user and keeps his nose out of trouble and works on articles, or he lapses into his old ways and someone can easily revert him and reblock. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 15:36, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

• Leave it up to Sceptre to behave, reblocks are cheap. Gwen Gale (talk) 15:58, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
  • If Sceptre stays away from community noticeboards, stays away from Kurt, and stays away from drama elsewhere such as on talk pages (note the additional requirements) then unblocking might not be unreasonable. JoshuaZ (talk) 16:13, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
  • Agree with unblocking Sceptre based on a clear agreement that, if followed by him, prevents the problems that led to his block, and if not followed by him, makes reblock, possibly extended, practically automatic and easy. As an agreement based on his voluntary acceptance of it, this is superior to simple imposition of sanctions. The key with disruptive editors, particularly with ones who are also positive contributors, is to gain their voluntary compliance with community behavioral norms. I see no value to the project in preventing Sceptre's positive contributions. The same is true for certain other disruptive editors, such as User:Fredrick day. If he'd agree to avoid the problem behaviors, I'd certainly support giving him a chance to show that he is capable of self-restraint. Self-restraint is far superior to imposed sanctions, it's efficient and more effective, for a user who is able to comply. Nobody likes to be forced to be cooperative. --Abd (talk) 16:22, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
• Sceptre is a featured content contributor whose problems occurred in Wikipedia namespace. If he comes back early there's a tradeoff: he gets the opportunity to improve articles (which is what he does best), but he's still getting trolled badly enough that his user space is protected at his request. With an early return he can expect more trolling--and if he doesn't handle it better than he did before then there's a danger he may get reblocked for a longer time. Still I'm not much for paternalism: he wants to take that risk and it's within the realm of reasonable options (he's a featured content contributor after all). So I'll support the proposal. Durova^Charge! 16:39, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
• Support unblock - In the few times I ran into Sceptre's work in the mainspace, I was very impressed by it. If he wants to write more, I say let him. J.delanoy^gabs_adds 16:41, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
• In principle I support the notion of an unblock, but it should be made very clear that a violation of this trust will not be tolerated, and that the block will be reinstated without hesitation should the problem behavior return. Shereth 16:44, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
• I support unblocking Sceptre on December 9, as he agreed. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 17:04, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
• I don't see a reason to believe that the problematic behaviour will have changed. His most recent comments that I am aware of (there may be other ones more recent) don't instill confidence. Per Will Beback, "I support unblocking Sceptre on December 9, as he agreed." ++Lar: t/c 17:53, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
• Agree to unblock, but also agree to their being some sort of parole on project space. We are possibly losing good articles with his absence, and I will assume he will behave this time. -- how do you turn this on 17:56, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
  • That is the basis of the entire thread- he wont be allowed in areas which encourage disruptive tendencies. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 18:06, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
• I agree with Will Beback. --MZMcBride (talk) 18:13, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
• Without commenting on the specifics of this case, I am in principle opposed to shortening blocks (occasional exception for indef blocks). In my opinion, the ability of blocks to deter negative behavior before it occurs is greatly diminished when people know that with a few promises and apologies, they can return to editing. -Chunky Rice (talk) 18:39, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
  • Whoah. If someone makes 5 reverts, is blocked for violating 3RR, and posts an unblock request saying "Sorry, I will not edit war any more", what's the point in making them wait out the remainder of the block? Don't we want them to "return to editing"? SHEFFIELDSTEEL^TALK 18:58, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
    • Assuming that the blcok was an appropriate length for a 1 time 3rr violation (24 hours, say), then the point is that actions have consequences. Creating a consequence free environment on Wikipedia isn't a good thing. -Chunky Rice (talk) 19:16, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
      • "Consequences" means punishment, rather than preventing disruption. SHEFFIELDSTEEL^TALK 19:19, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
        • It prevents disruption by acting as a deterrent. In my opinion the whole prevention vs. punishment paradigm is a false division. Blocks should not be solely punitive. But just because it is punitive does not mean that it is not also preventative. Take a look at any blocking structure remedy where we have incrementally increasing block lengths - what do you think the point of that is? Obviously, it's somewhat punitive, but it's primary goal is preventing disruption through deterrence. A goal that is compeltely undermined if the blocking is shortened every time the editor makes apology noises. -Chunky Rice (talk) 20:30, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
• I'm firmly opposed to making anyone make false apologies to get round blocks but we settled on 3 months for good reasons and I'm not really seeing any indications that Sceptre has attained any distance or greater understanding that would make an earlier unblock tenable. I have strong opinions but I know myself well enough to know I'm not being fair to Sceptre because of my personal opinion of them so please weigh this approopriately. But I do think my point is relevant to the discussion. Spartaz ^Humbug! 18:52, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
• December 9th sounds good to me. Remember, Sceptre has been on Wikipedia an extremely long period of time, none of his recent behavior can be attributed to "newness". Also, to the question of watching articles; if Sceptre cares about the articles he'll give David a list of them and David will put it on a page so we can all check recent changes on a regular basis. This "unblock me so I can protect articles" argument doesn't fly with me. MBisanz ^talk 19:00, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
• I think December 9th is fine. November 9th might be fine, too, but we aren't there yet. This would have been different without the attempts to evade the block, honestly. Protonk (talk) 19:16, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
• Leave at 3 months - and he should consider himself lucky at that. As for fixing articles, he can point out vandalism at IRC or on his talk page (some may consider the latter to be an improper talk page use but it doesn't offend me...) IMHO, wanting to be let off so early is another symptom of his chief issue here - taking things way too seriously. This was supposed to be time for him to detach a little and take some time to reflect and cool off - not to sit staring at his watchlist, gnashing his teeth and begging to be let back in. —Wknight94 (talk) 19:23, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
• Can't agree to unblock someone to protect articles as being a good idea. The only reason the block wasn't indef, considering the sockpuppet issues, is that he was a long-standing editor that some people feel is a net asset to WP. The entire length should be served out and if there are articles in trouble, he can email or post the list on his talk page and it will be dealt with by people who haven't engaged in disruption, sockpuppetry, and 3RR. -- Logical Premise ^Ergo? 20:35, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

  "that some people feel is a net asset to WP" — If you're going to play down his featured contributions, please do so outright e.g. by saying that in your opinion his featured contribs do not outweigh Will's mistakes. No insulting your fellow editors' collective intellect with weasel words, please. Everyme 21:41, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

• Support unblock (now, not December). We're building an encyclopedia here, and Sceptre can help. It does us no good to apply a punitive block to someone in hopes that they will not volunteer their time to help us develop articles for three months, thereby learning some kind of lesson. Surely, if Sceptre is capable of learning lessons, what he has been through already is sufficient. Using sockpuppets to pester Kurt Weber was a poor course of action, but it is almost meaningless when set against the utility of having a good and devoted editor working on articles. We need to get our priorities straight. Everyking (talk) 02:45, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
• A complete project space ban worked for Kurt, and I think a complete project space ban could also work for Will. Giggy (talk) 02:46, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
• I'd support a return to article editing for Sceptre, with a ban against all non-article work. He should be allowed to edit article, article talk pages, and user talk pages solely to discuss matters related to article content. We can revisit the rest of it at a later date after an extended period of good behavior. As many have noted, a reblock is cheap and easy, the first time he confronts another user he can be reblocked for 3 months with the knowledge that he blew his second chance. But we stand to lose nothing by unblocking him, if he only works on article content. And since a reblock is so easy, I see no reason to keep him blocked. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 03:18, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose unblock. He engaged in abusive sockpuppetry, which is normally an indef offense, was given a 3 month block instead, and now wants it lifted? No. Let him wait, he won't learn hislesson by unblocking him just because he requests it. Erik the Red 2 ~~~~ 03:20, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose unblock per Erik the Red. Jtrainor (talk) 05:45, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
• Support article editing unblock. I have worked with Sceptre at WP:LOST since approximately July 2007 and we made it our goal to create and get a (featured topic) set of fourteen articles to good or featured status between February and June of this year and we were successful. I have also met him at other parts of WP:TV and at WP:FAC and WP:RFA and was added to his list-of-people-to-contact-if-he-is-unavailable list. Through my interactions with him, I have found that Will is an excellent content editor and possesses other traits and skills ideal for a Wikipedia contributor. Since he was blocked, he e-mailed me asking to check changes to his articles and I have all of his featured/FAC content on my watchlist. If he sticks to encyclopedia writing and directly associated project/talk namespaces, e.g. FAC, for the time being, I think that we will even see him climb the WP:WBFAN/2008 ladder. –thedemonhog talk • edits 07:57, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose unblock until December 9. We usually block indef for this sort of thing, and this wasn't some newbie who didn't realise what they were doing. However, if consensus should be to unblock, he should be namespace-barred from project pages. Black Kite 10:29, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
• Support an article editing unblock, agree mostly with comment by thedemonhog (talk · contribs), and Durova (talk · contribs) makes some good points. The short of it is that Gwen Gale (talk · contribs) is right - if past troublesome behavior resurfaces, could always reblock. Cirt (talk) 11:54, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
• Support unblock with clear agreement from Sceptre. We should send a positive message: "You are a valuable contributor," at the same time as we protect the project from the problems. Voluntary restrictions, i.e., accepted by an editor in a free negotiation, are always superior in the long run to purely imposed sanctions, except when editors are truly unable or unwilling to restrain themselves and honor their own promises even when the rules are crystal clear. I've seen no evidence of that in this case. For this reason, unblock now, under a clear agreement -- which should be explicit, and explicitly accepted by Sceptre, not just some vague conclusion from this long discussion -- is much better than waiting for the block to expire. --Abd (talk) 12:01, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
• If he wants to create content, we should allow him to do such. If he, in turn, throws it back in our face, then he should have some kind of penalty. Perhaps unblock now with it known that he could be blocked for, say, 4 or 5 months if he causes any problems during the 3 month period that he would have been blocked during? I don't know. I like content. I hate fighting. Ottava Rima (talk) 15:52, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
• I am for the FULL unconditional unblock of User:Spectre because he is quite helpful guy. On the contrary, i support a project ban on Kurt Weber for being a complete asshat. --creaɯy!^Talk 16:12, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
  • That's not helpful, and I suggest you withdraw it. Black Kite 16:21, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
  • It's not helpful at all. Doesn't mean it doesn't have a point. Kurt is quite a bit more ... ah, hard to get along with than Spectre? Some people are going to recommend an unblock simply for the biased sort of reason as listed above "I like Spectre". Is that proper? -- Logical Premise ^Ergo? 16:23, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
    • Reasons given for blocking or unblocking can be analysed by their worth; nevertheless, Cream is entitled to the first half of his comment, but not the second. Black Kite 16:34, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
      • Cream, please reconsider the ending of that comment. Durova^Charge! 17:37, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
      • Indeed: Cream, there's a trade-off between speaking frankly and being prudent. "Asshat" probably doesn't quite respect that. Anthøny ✉ 18:04, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
• Agree with Logical Premise. The only reason the block wasn't indef was because of his work in the mainspace. The entire length should be served out. GlassCobra 18:44, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
• I agree with an unblock: Sceptre's article-work is flawless, from what I've seen of it. He's made mistakes, but from what I know of Sceptre, he's capable of learning, and isn't in the habit of lying. He can be reblocked if necessary, but I hope it won't come to that. Acalamari 21:10, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
• Unblock now. Everyme 21:14, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
• Strong oppose. He agreed to the earlier proposal; three months isn't that lengthy in any respect anyway. Caulde 21:19, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
• I favour a conditional unblock, based on our experience in Western Australia with a then-troublesome user who had been blocked for sockpuppetry, disruption and helping another user evade a block. We ended up negotiating with him an unblock very much on our terms. The type of disruption was different so with Sceptre giving him reasonably free scope in article space, so long as he stays away from certain parties in doing so, would be fine, but WP space (apart from AIV and his own FA/GA nominations) would be off-limits until, say, 3 or 6 months after the unblock (we did it for 3 in our case). In practice, the user did very well indeed, by the time the 3 month probation ended we were only really checking contribs once a day and not finding anything to worry about, and he's been fantastic ever since. 99.99% of this user's problems relate to getting involved in other people's dramas, which he seems to take quite seriously and can't extricate himself from once involved. At present, there is no incentive for him to change his behaviour on his return in December - this provides one, in my view. In order to get it to work, three or four admins need to be responsible for watching him - they need to be ones he'd find acceptable, but whose intention to enforce it is not in doubt by the community. I'd be happy to put my hand up for that, although I understand if others want to take the role on instead. Orderinchaos 00:49, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
  • Fine, I withdraw the "asshat" comment, but i still maintain a vague and blank and quite veiled hostility towards Kurt. --creaɯy!^Talk 16:05, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Strong opposition to Sceptre's unblock

Based on the behavior Sceptre has displayed on his talk page since he was block, I am in strong opposition to him being unblocked. He has reverted legitimate comments by other users as "vandalism" and "trolling" [1] [2], gloated on his talk page about another user being blocked whom he had previously been in conflict with (the same user who's page he had vandalized anonymously) [3], whined about his block and insisted that he be unblocked just because the above user was unblocked [4]. If anything, based on this behavior, his block should be lengthened, not overturned. The fact that he is so quick to gloat about other users being blocked and label them as "trolls", yet believes that he deserves special treatment and that his block should just be taken away shows a gross level of immaturity. I believe if nothing else, the block should remain as is, as this will hopefully give him time to rethink his behavior, but I honestly wouldn't object to it being extended either.--ParisianBlade (talk) 19:13, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Once again, read blocking policy, we aren't supposed to try and make sure "users learn their lesson" punitively. If we restrict him to editingspace to avoid disruption, there is no reason for the block, because the whole point of it will have been erased. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 20:35, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

There is such a thing as deterrence. This three month block seems to say "we really mean it". If Sceptre is unblocked early, the message becomes "we really didn't mean it." Jehochman ^Talk 20:39, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

This isn't world politics. We don't have to act macho and continue down a stupid course of action because "We're america, god dammit, and we can't let the terrorists win!" I don't see where deterrence is mentioned in the blocking policy, and either way a block is not deterrence- "The prevention from action by fear of the consequences" - if he's blocked, there are no consequences. What I'm proposing actually would, ironically. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 21:11, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

There are consequences to blocking - namely, appeals and unblocking threads like this one that take people's time. Both blocking and unblocking have consequences. It's not as simple as saying one option has consequences and the other one doesn't. Carcharoth (talk) 23:03, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs, I find your bigoted comments concerning America to be extremely offensive, and ask that you retract them. Jtrainor (talk) 23:50, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Oh, grow up, I'm illustrating a point. I can be as bigoted as I flippin' wanna be. Anyway, Carcharoth, you have a valid point, but as contributing to this thread is voluntary, the suggestion that this draws on people's time is a bit of a misdirection. I could have gone ahead and gotten Sceptre to agree to terms on IRC, unblocked him, and then notified everyone "Hey, I unblocked sceptre, and as long as he doesn't commit personal attacks and remains in editingspace he's chill". But I think most people would agree that's not a good idea. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 00:03, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

"I can be as be as bigoted as I want to be"??? David, you need to relax. You are raising the heat level markedly without producing any more light, and you're not doing Sceptre any favors. You made a good point, now let it play out. And by the way, the unilateral, no-discussion administrator action you described would have likely been perceived as unnecessarily disruptive. Again, you're starting to get shrill. Calm down. Bullzeye ^{(Ring for Service)} 00:36, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Surprise surprise, being patronizing doesn't make me want to "calm down". Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 02:36, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Fuchs, it would be more persuasive to present ideas in a way that doesn't raise this sort of objections. Durova^Charge! 01:56, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

• I've had a chance to do a sanity look at the case myself, and I must oppose any reduction in Sceptre's block. Using socks to harass other users, regardless of the circumstances, is not acceptable. Ever. Blueboy96 20:56, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
• If we do unblock for such things as "article quality" (which probably weren't high on the priority list anyway, henceforth there would be no block if they were) we're setting ourselves up for a potential precedent affecting every single 'deterrent' action(s) we may pass in the future, and eventually, the integrity of such motions will deteoriate on each editor they affect, such as to mean there would no point in passing them. That's not helpful for either Sceptre or us. Leave the block in place. Caulde 21:23, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
  • What are you saying? There's no precedent, we aren't the supreme court, and what choices we make in one decision do not affect others. The point is not to uphold some perceived integrity of blocking, it's to improve the encyclopedia: that's why we are here. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 21:41, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
    • "choices we make in one decision do not affect others" - maybe in an ideal world they wouldn't, but this is the real world and people do look to past actions to guide future actions. As for integrity of blocking, that does directly affect the encyclopedia. Not that the integrity of blocking in general around here was that high to begin with. Whether a block "sticks" or not does seem to depend not on what actually happened, but more on a large hodge-podge of various factors. Carcharoth (talk) 23:03, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

I've been procrastinating about doing this for several weeks now, but this topic has finally prompted me to write Wikipedia:Priorities -- please feel free to butcher it as needed. --Gutza ^{T T+} 23:15, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose early unblock - ParisianBlade took the words right out of my mouth. If Sceptre had shown any signs that he acknowledged the severity of his actions and promised not to do them again, I'd be all for an immediate shortening of his block. But he hasnt, at all; he's been acting like some sort of an affronted Wiki-Prince, making excuses, drawing irrelevant parallels with other users, threatening to take his ball and go home ("Then you'll be sorry!"), and generally admitting no wrongdoing. I can't support an early unblock in this situation, as it sends completely the wrong message. I realize Sceptre has been around Wikipedia for a long time, and I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, but not when he's throwing a temper tantrum like he is. We don't want abasement, we just want him to stop acting manipulative and juvenile for 30 seconds... Bullzeye ^{(Ring for Service)} 00:44, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Bullzeye. The reason the current block is in place isn't to punish Sceptre for his previous behavior, but because there is no reason to assume that his behavior will change if he is unblocked. It is therefore, in fact, there to prevent disruption. An example of chronic disruptive behavior on his part which he has yet to change is his continuous abuse of rollback/Twinkle/undo by reverting legitimate edits/comments as "vandalism" or "trolling" (including one incident in which he reverted a report of disruptive behavior on his part I made on WP:AN as "vandalism"). Even though he has had his rollback privileges suspended multiple times, he still continues in this behavior to this day. The behavior which got him blocked in the first place was his trolling of User:Kmweber, and just within the past week he has continued to troll this user on his talk page. He can say on IRC all he wants "I promise I won't do it again", but actions speak louder than words, and none of his actions since his block give any reason to assume that he'll change the behavior that got him blocked in the first place. Hopefully a few months off will give him the time he needs to mature and make a decision to change his behavior.--ParisianBlade (talk) 01:15, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

That's the whole reason for the projectspace restriction. He has shown to be a valuable contributor, so we could allow him to continue doing that. Honestly, we stand to gain much more by unblocking him than we stand to lose. Can anyone explain what horrible things will happen if Sceptre does return, acts like a dick and is promptly reblocked? Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 02:36, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Time, mostly. Which we have plenty of. ffm 03:21, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

That's not really I direct response to my question :P Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 03:31, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia is based on policies and rules, which Sceptre has shown himself unable to follow. Why should he get any special treatment? What's so special about him? There are plenty of good contributors around here, I fail to see why he is irreplacable in any way, shape, or form. The pages he edits will not spontaneously combust if he has to wait out his block. And to respond to your earlier comment, no, you may not be 'as bigoted as you want to be'. You're as much required to follow WP:CIVIL as I am. Jtrainor (talk) 20:52, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

You need to take what you read with a grain of salt. I'm an american, so stop getting your boxers in a bunch. Once again, the point of blocking policy is to prevent disruption; if we put him on parole with the same effect, there is no reason to continue the block. Don't begin to judge the worth of editors, J; we aren't here to say who's "special" and "irreplaceable". Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 21:54, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Paroles and mentorships require effort by volunteers to enforce. They aren't "free", and they often aren't effective at eliminating disruption. Sceptre agreed to these terms. Let's stick to the agreement. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 22:08, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Not much of an effort; if he violates the terms of his parole, he's blocked. That takes five seconds on an admin's time. Just because they don't always work doesn't mean we shouldn't try. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 22:18, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Far more than five seconds of admins' time have been spent on this thread alone. I don't see any reason to believe that a parole violation could be handled in five seconds. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 22:34, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Article and talk space restriction

How about we limit Sceptre to article and talk space (I know this has been suggested above, but let's put in a firm proposal) for 3-6 months, then we can think about opening a namespace up at a time after this period. I would probably suggest 3 months at first, then we can start think about reducing it down. Sceptre is keen on getting back to article work, and he does nothing wrong in this area. I'm sure he'd happily accept this restriction as he's got a lot to give to mainspace and it's certainly better for him than an outright side wide ban. Ryan Postlethwaite^{See the mess I've created or let's have banter} 22:26, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes this is fine. I think we're losing out by keeping him banned. -- how do you turn this on 22:29, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

My initial idea was to keep him under such restrictions until the end of his block duration (december) and then the parole can be reevaluated, whatever. If he screws up, we reblock. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 22:44, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Would he be allowed in User_talk:? It's somewhat hard to discuss edits with a user if you cannot contact them on their talk page. ffm 22:46, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

I think he's been problematic in user talk space - he's been known to cause some nasty arguments there. If there's content problems, he can use the article talk page like everyone else should. Ryan Postlethwaite^{See the mess I've created or let's have banter} 22:47, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Agree. Talk pages and the admin noticeboards have generally been where the issues have arisen. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 22:49, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

• Yep, I'd be fine with this - as long as it happens on December 9. Are we really considering unblocking a user who doesn't acknowledge why he was blocked in the first place? What a great message that sends out. Black Kite 22:52, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

• Based on Sceptre's past edit warring over articles, the same sort of edit warring the led to him losing rollback twice, and his frivolous AFD nominations, and the issues with fairuse images in articles, I cannot agree with Ryan that "he does nothing wrong in this area". MBisanz ^talk 23:00, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
  • If accurate that is worrisome. When did Sceptre lose rollback and when was the last problematic AfD? JoshuaZ 14:43, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
    • I believe that I removed his rollback very shortly before his initial indef block. Fritzpoll (talk) 14:47, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
    • It is documented at Mass_pointy_AfD_noms and Removal_of_rollback and User:Sceptre_-_Abuse_of_rollback. MBisanz ^talk 14:59, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
      • Hmm, ok that is worrisome. This makes me more inclined to agree that he should stay blocked. I've previously tried to encourage Sceptre in the meantime to help out on some of the other Wikimedia projects but I've seen no sign of that happening. Sigh. JoshuaZ 20:30, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
    • For the record, he has actually had rollback removed three times, not twice. I also removed it back in May,[5] following a discussion on AN. - auburnpilot talk 14:41, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
• I support Ryan's proposal, noting his concerns re the user talk namespace. Orderinchaos 01:04, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Mentorship

Erm, what happened to mentorship? I don't believe Sceptre took on board what he did was wrong, and hence will need a mentor not to do it again. Agree with Black Kite above. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:26, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, mentorship and being limited to article and talk pages could well work together - I think mentorship would be a good way forward. Ryan Postlethwaite^{See the mess I've created or let's have banter} 11:32, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Sceptre has been here since, what, 2005? To be blunt, I don't think there's any subtle hints a mentor could teach him that he hasn't already had ample opportunity to learn. This isn't a case of accidentally blanking content, malformation of complex templates, or non-adherance to the MOS. Sceptre has engaged in juvenile harassment of multiple editors on multiple occasions, a pattern of behavior which dates back years (see oppose #1, here), not to mention starting up a little sockfarm. If you really believe he just simply didn't know his behavior was out of line, then either you're a fool or you think Sceptre is a bigger fool. Allowing an editor who has done what he's done to come back with this sort of "slap on the wrist" and final final final this-time-we-definitely-mean-it-for-now final chance seems to pave the way for WP to become the ultimate in bullying cliques, where the "good ol boys" with the time or desire to fart around in project space are given carte blanche to attempt to demoralize, troll, harass, or just plain bully anybody else. That's ridiculous, and perhaps this attitude is why there are so few contributors of Sceptre's (or Kurt's!) tenacity. Who's to say how many people with plenty of contributions to make devote less time, or no time, to Wikipedia, once they find out the insanity (such as this) that goes on behind the scenes? Badger Drink (talk) 20:17, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

He may have been here since 2005, but is also young and behaving as such, many newer editors are older and mellower. I mean that emotionally people can often be blind to their actions as they are preoccupied with their own needs or desires rather than being receptive to others. My point was if he comes back then he must have a mentor IMHO. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:31, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

We're hardly giving him carte blanche to do anything; I don't know why no one reads the conditions in my original post but the entire point was that we give him a chance to stay out of troubles' way and be productive, and if he doesn't then we can throw him off the side for all I care. The objective is to improve the 'pedia and give Sceptre a chance to do that with minimal disruption; if he does indeed act disruptive, then an admin reblocks him and nothing else need be said; "obviously he is unable to contribute constructively without disruption in any capacity at this time." -Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 22:20, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

We gave him a chance. We have, in fact, given him multiple chances. We gave him a chance in 2006, where Jimbo Wales said "if he does ONE MORE LITTLE THING, he is gone from wikipedia *poof* just then, no arbcom, no nothing, just me banning him myself". We gave him a second chance in late-August, 2008, when his rollback rights (formerly taken away for abuse over at Criticism of Hugo Chavez) were given back (only to be revoked once more four days later for more abuse). We gave him a third chance in September, when, after being discovered using an anonymous I.P. to harass good-faith contributors with whom he had what could be best described as "political differences", he was given a rather light two month block, with a stern warning not to fuck up again. You could even consider his subsequent three-month block for more sockpuppetry to be a fourth chance, as I don't know of many other users with his history who would be given such a comparatively light block after multiple sock puppeting instances. Wikipedia is not a babysitting service - if he cannot control his own behavior, that's unfortunate, but it isn't (and shouldn't be) our problem. --Badger Drink (talk) 02:45, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Hmm - I wasn't aware it was that many chances - I sorta came late to this party. Is there a single coherent timeline with diffs of all these? Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 03:11, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Badger: this is wikipedia. It's not your problem, it's not anyone's problem unless you are directly affected by Sceptre's actions or you make it your problem. I don't give a damn how many chances he's had, I care about improving the 'pedia. If unblocking Sceptre with conditions leads to him productively editing, so much the better. If not, we block him and revert. It takes no one any time if they don't care-- I'd happily volunteer to clean up any possible mess he could make. We really stand to lose little by going with the proposal. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 03:23, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

I believe what badger is trying to say is that "has this p