User talk:Kleinzach
This article is licensed under the GNU Free Documentation License. It uses material from the Wikipedia article "User_talk:Kleinzach".

Archive 1 • Archive 2 • Archive 3 • Archive 4 • Archive 5 • Archive 6 • Archive 7
Archive 8 • Archive 9 • Archive 10 •Archive 11 •Archive 12 •Archive 13 •Archive 14 •Archive 15

Opera stubs

Greetings! I am not at all at loose ends, nor are my edits random; I'm part of the stub-sorting project, which has a proposal for splitting this category either by century or by language. In order to get an accurate count for the possible split, I'm sorting out things that are not operas, i.e. opera singers & other people, and I will take on opera companies later. Since the articles in question have permanent opera-type categories, they will not be lost in the shuffle. If you feel strongly about a stub type, and you think there may be more than 60 articles for opera people who aren't singers, please feel free to propose {{opera-bio-stub}} or something related at Wikipedia:WikiProject Stub sorting/Proposals. Cheers, Her Pegship (tis herself) 02:29, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

According to the proposal at stub sorting (which is where stub proposals go), someone requested participation by the Opera project and got no response; then when WPSS acted according to stub guidelines, their efforts were reverted. Feel free to invite others to pitch in on that discussion if you like. HTH, Her Pegship (tis herself) 02:44, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

The Opera project talk archive shows some discussion back in December. Her Pegship (tis herself) 03:19, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

If you'll examine my last comment, you'll see that I did indeed include the link to the appropriate discussion. I was about to post to the Opera project talk page when my friend Grutness got in ahead of me. The project has thus been notified. Her Pegship (tis herself) 05:01, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't know how many edits I've made (you can take a look at my contributions if you like). I do understand many of the nuances of the opera world, and I understand your anxiety about making more work, but I have faith that the sorting I have done will help rather than hinder. As for notifying the Opera project, I gathered from the WPSS discussion that that had happened in the past and was about to happen again, so please stop admonishing me for not notifying the project. I am hardly the only editor involved in this discussion. Her Pegship (tis herself) 05:20, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

You are welcome to revert my edits, as is any editor. If I didn't think they were helpful, I wouldn't have made them in the first place, thus I'm not not willing to go back and undo my work. Her Pegship (tis herself) 05:40, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

H3 headings

Good morning and greetings to Japan. I am stuck and need your help again, I am afraid: Choral/Vocal music, Film Score, and Incidental music should be H3 titles. Would you, please, take a look? I also tried to upload a picture and promptly got into trouble for missing information on copyright status. I find the Wikipedia rules and regulations on uploading images daunting but I am not giving up. Thank you,82.246.8.173 (talk) 04:26, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Is that Cote d'Azur? I'm not sure what primary titles are. Can you give me links (in double square brackets)? --Kleinzach 10:04, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

r:Classical music/next

Replied. Section done. §hep • ¡Talk to me! 09:36, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Ready when you are to move to the next sections. :) §hep • ¡Talk to me! 04:43, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Category:Saxophone quartets

I'm puzzled by your removal of Category:Saxophone quartets from the Rova Saxophone Quartet today. In your edit summary you say "for music not musicians", but what else can this cat be used for other than to group saxophone quartets? --Bruce1ee^talk 09:14, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

I've reverted two of your edits related to this matter. I also tweaked the definition of Category:Saxophone quartets to (hopefully) eliminate ambiguity. I see that its sister category, Category:String quartets has a companion category, Category:Compositions for string quartet, which eliminates any possible ambiguity. --Bruce1ee^talk 11:04, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

H3 headings

YES, it's me, I am sorry for the misunderstanding, I meant H3 headings, not titles, the last 3 headings in my article, "Choral/Vocal music," "Film score" and "Incidental music" should be H3 headings. Did you see what they did to my attempt to put in a video too? It was a scene from his last opera, Le piccole storie which I introduced alla Renata Tebaldi: "YouTube - Scene from Le piccole storie in this video from 2007" but it did not work ! Now his photographs and video are on Freebase, such a pity... Meanwhile, I would be very grateful if we could solve the headings problem. Alla prossimaCote d'Azur (talk) 14:11, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

PERFECT, thank you a lot, now I can go on ! GreetingsCote d'Azur (talk) 06:53, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Jérusalem

Can you rewrite the Noted arias section? It is hard to understand. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 13:17, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't understand what the section is saying. It will be good to add an explanation. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 13:26, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

List of Mozart's operas

Could you give a brief opinion on whether this is a viable FL nomination? It's on peer review at present; one reviewer has questioned the "Mozart's women" para in the lead, and also doesn't like the bibliography format. I think I can defend both of these, but I would value an informed view on the overall quality of the list, if you can spare the time. Brianboulton (talk) 17:34, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

On the first point I am in two minds myself as to whether this might be better in the Mozart main article. The last time I looked at bibliography formats there didn't seem to be much of a consensus on WP about how to do them. Sources and references shows how we do them on the Opera Project - basically Harvard style. I'll have a look at the peer review as well. --Kleinzach 05:25, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Actually I would be interested in your help as well! I don't know you would like to have a look at my lists? Here thy are:

• Luigi Cherubini#Operas,
• André Ernest Modeste Grétry#Operas,
• Niccolò Piccinni#Works
• Amilcare_Ponchielli#Operas
• Gaspare_Spontini#Works

Thanks. --Kleinzach 05:46, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm happy to look at your lists. Meanwhile, are you recommending we get rid of the "women" paragraph in the Mozart list?

Well, not get rid of it - but maybe integrate it into the main article - but I don't have a strong opinion on this. --Kleinzach 11:27, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, there isn't really a "main article". I'll leave it where it is, and see if it is challenged further. Brianboulton (talk) 14:32, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

I meant the Mozart biography - but anyway I don't feel strongly about it either way. --Kleinzach 14:42, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

As to the lists, they look pretty informative. I've so far only looked in detail at Cherubini, and my initial comments are:-

• Since there are far fewer links available to specific opera articles than is the case with Mozart, these lists are potentially an important source for anyone seeking details about the individual works, so the lists should aim to include as much information as is practically possible.

Agreed. --Kleinzach 11:27, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

• Would opus numbers or other catalogue references be helpful?

If they exist - yes. --Kleinzach 11:27, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

• Would it be possible to have English titles (in <small>)?

Yes, if there's space. --Kleinzach 11:27, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

• Full dates are not wikilinked in the "Premieres" column.

Ah. This has come up before. Apparently some people think you shouldn't link '3 January' but only '1785'. The Opera Project link to the 'Year in music', see Dates of premieres. --Kleinzach 11:27, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't see why the day and month, as well as the "year in music", shouldn't be linked, thereby achieving compliance with WP:MoS#dates

• Do I assume that when the full date is not given, the exact date of the premiere is unknown?

Yes. I think that's well established.--Kleinzach 11:27, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

• Some theatre links could be added, e.g. Teatro Regio di Torino. Theatre details are not always standardised; for example, I imagine La Pergola in Florence, and Teatro della Pergola in Florence, are the same place. Are "Tuileries" and "Fontainebleau" theatres, or just the general locations?

Good points. These need checking.--Kleinzach 11:27, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

• I noticed, in the Gretry list, some blank cells in the "Libretto" column. It might be better to enter "Librettist unknown", or just "unknown", in such instances.

Yes again, this needs checking. --Kleinzach 11:27, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

These are some initial remarks. I will try and look in more detail later, especially at the non-opera lists. Brianboulton (talk) 10:47, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

I didn't do the non-opera lists (at least I can't remember any). --Kleinzach 11:27, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Maybe I should explain that my only sources for these lists were Grove and the Dutch Wikipedia. I don't know if you have access to a good music library? --Kleinzach 11:27, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm some distance from a comprehensive music library. My own stuff is pretty well confined to Mozart and Wagner. I would imagine that the amount of specialist literature on Cherubini, Gretry & Co is limited, and that Grove is the best source. Brianboulton (talk) 14:32, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

OK. Maybe it's not possible then. --Kleinzach 14:41, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Capitalization in Mozart opera list

OK, sorry. Change 'em back by all means Brianboulton (talk) 14:08, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Jon Christos part two

I've been trying to help the guy who adds so much to this page. He left this note here:

Hi, Thanks for your observations on the Jon Christos Wikipedia article. Although I'm not the author of the page, as a friend of Jon's I do edit it occasionally. I'm not greatly familiar with the workings of Wikipedia and find it some of it quite complicated, but notice you found some great references on Jon which I could use as verifiable references on his career notes- if that's ok with you. I also wonder if you can let me know of a similar classical music artist Wikipedia page that would be a good example to follow in it's correctness. Regards, Alfshire. AB 16:56, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

When I think he's getting the idea he adds clearly fan-style, COI stuff — see the edit he's just added here. Some the references he adds are to content created by the subject or his record company eg [1]. I'm getting out of my depth; I've been trying to tidy it and make it more objective, but I feel I may be wasting my effort... Could you help me out a bit, citing WP policies etc? Thank you, almost-instinct 16:23, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

List of Mozart's operas

This is now at FLC. It has so far attracted only limited attention, concerned with commas, full stops and minor style questions. It badly needs some informed comment about its content and utility. The list provoked some interest when it first appeared; it would be very helpful if you could spare a minute or two to leave a comment at FLC. Thanks. Brianboulton (talk) 19:56, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Avoiding banner spam

Thanks for the note. Just to let you know I am basically placing banners on articles in Category:Music theory stubs which seemed appropriate. I think it essential to banner articles under the projects perview as it helps recruit members and hopefully will foster an interest in the project. If you forsee any issues let me know and or have any advice as to limmiting where I and any potential new members should place banners let me know.Nrswanson (talk) 03:37, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

I am not sure exactly what you want me to do... I set out the scope of the project what more should I say? I started the project because I personally feel that many of the articles on music theory subjects are either poorly written, inaccurate, in need of expansion, and in many cases unreferenced. Also many of these articles have never had a banner at all and are currently orphaned from the rest of the encyclopedia. I personally would be more interested in improving already existing articles in a systematic way than writing new ones. At this point, the overall navigation of music theory articles is difficult since categories and lists are currently not used as effectively as they could be in this area. This is one reason I have been bannering article, so that I can get a more accurate picture of how best to organize the body of articles into useful categories, etc. I want this section of music articles to be as well organized as the opera project and right now it's a mess.Nrswanson (talk) 04:15, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Sigh... It's taken me several hours to put these up and I frankly don't have the time to remove them right now. (I will be gone the next two days) Perhaps you know of a bot owner who could help? Also, many of the articles had no banner to begin with so what do we do about those. And when would banner placement be appropriate? etc. Nrswanson (talk) 04:27, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

I thought about doing a taskforce but honestly the classical music project is too narrow a project for this subject for several reasons. One, there are several elements of music theory used only in jazz, blues, etc. that would not be relevent to the classical project. Two, the foundations of musical theory are used in all western music and are therefore not only under the scope of the classical music project but the scope of multiple projects. It really makes more sense for it to be its own project. Organizationally a project makes more sense but perhaps a taskforce might be more practical. What do you think?Nrswanson (talk) 04:35, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. Your way is best. I removed the music project banners simply because I think of that project as a catch all for random articles that don't fit anywhere else. I honestly didn't think they'd care since the policy seems to be to not place their banner on articles where another music project banner exists. On second thought, that probably was foolish on my part.Nrswanson (talk) 04:47, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Makes perfect sense to me and you have my support. I am logging off now. Sorry for causing you a headache with the banners. I will be back on in a few days and will help complete reversions if they are not done. Thanks.Nrswanson (talk) 04:57, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Salvatore Fisichella /thanks a lot....

Hello there,

Thank you for helping out with the editing... I highly appreciate it.

Very best regards,

--Luis Miguel31 (talk) 10:29, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Is this what you are looking for?

16 October 1994 "XV Bellini D’Oro 1994" Bellini Prize - Awarded by the Sicilian Tourist Authority at the Teatro Massimo Bellini in Catania with the following comments: “Salvatore Fisichella continues in the great singing tradition of the provinces around Etna. Gifted with extraordinary ease of voice and vocal brilliance, especially in the top range and extreme top range as demanded by Bellini’s scores, he is worthy of full honours as being the only tenor of this century to have played and sung the major opera roles of the cigno catanese Bellini.”

>It was a prize (a plaque) awarded to him by the Sicilian Tourist Authorities (in Sicily, the island/region where he was born/ raised and currently resides) during the mid 90's. It is also where Vincenzo Bellini, the composer, (in Catania) was born. And so, the Sicilian Tourist Authorities must have been quite sure in asserting this when they awarded Salvatore Fisichella this honor at that time.

This is also inserted under Accolades, Awards and disctinctions.. . and it has always been there. I just re-worded it to fit the present. I hope this clarifies. Thank you. Very best regards, --Luis Miguel31 (talk) 07:43, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Also for your information, Number of Bellini operas performed by a tenor (as per wikepedia)

Alfredo Kraus – 1 (source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfredo_Kraus)

P. Domingo (who claims to have performed the most number of tenor opera roles ever ) - 1 (source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placido_Domingo)

Pavarotti –

Has done Arturo (Puritani), Pollione (Norma), Elvino and Orombello (Beatrice) -probably more --Kleinzach 10:59, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

> yes, probably, probably not, otherwise the Sicilian Tourist Authorities (in Italy) would have awarded this to Luciano Pavarotti instead. The recognition was given to Salvatore Fisichella. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Luis Miguel31 (talk • contribs) 11:15, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Carlo Bergonzi – 1 (source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlo_Bergonzi_%28tenor%29)

Rockwell Blake – 2 (source: http://www.bruceduffie.com/blake.html)

Jose Carreras: 2 (Source: http://www.josepcarreras.com/operaroles_josepcarreras.php)

Enrico Caruso – 2 (source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enrico_Caruso)

Miguel Fleta – none

Other tenors (younger ones)

Juan Diego Florez – 3 (source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juan_Diego_Fl%C3%B3rez)

Salvatore Fisichella: 7

• 1. I puritani (Arturo)
• 2. Il pirata (Gualtiero)
• 3. Beatrice di Tenda (Orombello)
• 4. I Capuleti e i Montecchi (Tebaldo - not really a major role!) >

It is a major tenor role, please refer to I Capuleti e i Montecchi

Hmm. I wrote a large part of that article. --Kleinzach 11:14, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

He also played the the role of Romeo in this opera.

> You should also be aware that this role can be played by a tenor.

So - when and where did he sing Romeo? --Kleinzach 13:42, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Romeo is a mezzo role - sung by a woman. --Kleinzach 11:14, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

• 5. La straniera (Arturo)
• 6. Norma (Pollione)

• -- Missa seconda in sol min. (Bellini)

Thanks,

--Luis Miguel31 (talk) 09:30, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for this information. I think we can forget about Domingo, Bergonzi, Caruso, Fleta, as these aren't Bellini singers. Kraus, Pavarotti, Giuseppe Di Stefano, Tito Schipa, Nicolai Gedda, Florez and perhaps a few others would be possibilities.

Note that there are 10 Bellini operas: one is La Sonnaumbula (Elvino) which SF hasn't apparently done. Also Adelson e Salvini (Salvini), Bianca e Fernando (Fernando), and Zaira (Corasmino). --Kleinzach 10:57, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

>>>> Yes, you are correct. Please refer to SF's repertoire. Best regards,--Luis Miguel31 (talk) 11:10, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

I think I have supported and justified the claim well and adequate already. If you still want to contest it, I suggest you contact the Sicilian Tourist Authorities (IT). You can help me by re-formulating/ re-wording. Thank you. Im having lunch now. Enjoy the rest of the day:-) Best regards,

--Luis Miguel31 (talk) 11:25, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm not convinced that (1) SF has sung all the main Bellini roles (it seems he has sung six not seven), or (2) the Sicilian Tourist Authorities are notable in any way as judges of singing. --Kleinzach 13:42, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Hello again,

I refer to your message above, which is noted. I have added some more references to support the said entry. For the sake of good order, please also note the following.

• 1) The prize and the ’motivation’ for the award is an established fact, which is well documented. Please refer to the additional references. There had been important witnesses to the event. Years has passed and nobody has contested this.

• 2) Please find below the list of recipients of Bellini D'Oro Prize from the time it started until 1994.

Il ’’Bellini D’Oro’’ I Premiati

• 1968 - Vittorio Gui
• 1969 - Gianandrea Gavazzeni,

Francesco Pastura (alla memoria)

• 1971 - Elena Suliotis
• 1972 - Montserrat Caballe
• 1975 - Renata Scotto
• 1977 - Mario Filippeschi
• 1981 - Alfredo Kraus
• 1985 - Gina Cigna,

Maria Gentile, Franco Lo Giudice, Gino Marinuzzi (alla memoria), Luciano Pavarotti

• 1987 - Nicolai Gedda,

Friedrich Lippmann, Giulietta Simionato, Ferruccio Tagliavini,

• 1988 - Richard Bonynge,

Joan Sutherland

• 1989 - Fiorenza Cossotto,

Tito Schipa (alla memoria)

• 1990 - June Anderson
• 1991 - Mariella Devia,

Giuseppe Di Stefano, Leyla Gencer

• 1993 - Piero Cappuccilli,

Margherita Carosio, Giacomo Lauri Volpi (alla memoria), Caludio Muzio (alla memoria)

• 1994 - Salvatore Fisichella (I have already posted above the motivation/ reason for the award)

Francesco Nicolosi

Source - Libro: Premio Bellini D'Oro 1994, Teatro Massimo Bellini, Catania, 16 Ottobre 1994 Azienda Autonoma Provinciale Per L'Incremento Turistico.

Maybe you would like to write an article about this Bellini D'Oro Prize. You may not be convinced that (tenor) Salvatore Fisichella has been the foremost performer of Bellini’s works in the XX century, but an entire awarding body/ organization decided on that. You may not be convinced that the Sicilian Tourist Authorities are notable in any way as judges of singing, and that is fair and well noted, but you should also respect that this is a valid entry as this, in fact, has transpired. Unless you can provide written works disproving this claim, please be so kind to desist from tagging this entry. Thank you again for helping with the editing. Enjoy the rest of the evening.Best regards,--Luis Miguel31 (talk) 20:11, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

This is becoming unproductive. I suggest we move all discussions about this to the article Talk page so other editors can help you with it. My time is limited. --Kleinzach 22:21, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Question about photos in Singer articles

Kleinzach, I hope you don’t mind helping me with my doubt about “fair use” images. The issue is so unclear to me. There was once (many months back), I posted Placido Domingo photos (before I decided to contact Domingo's PR) but all of them been deleted with various reasons such as “you cannot use FAIR USE because this guy is still alive” or “this photo is for his album not for profile” and many more. But what ticks me off is, why other articles can easily get pass all these criteria. Just take a look at Salvatore Fisichella, José Carreras and many more. These 2 are merely examples, there are many more actually. I for one, love our articles to have many photos but I just couldn’t figure out what criteria can be considered as CAN and CANNOT. In José Carreras for example, Image:CarrerasRicciarelliCDBoheme.jpg is allowed but at one time, I posted Domingo album cover and it was DELETED. One more, Image:RomanzaFinalScreenShot.jpg was taken from a scene is allowed but when I posted Domingo in one of the scenes in Turandot, it was deleted with various reasons. I am not questioning Carreras article but only using it as example. Hopefully you don’t mind answering my questions. Thanks. PS- This question is also posted to Wiki Admin who at one time asked me to justify for photos I uploaded. - Jay (talk) 07:41, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

User:Voceditenore uploaded the Carreras jpegs so I think we need to ask her. She knows more about this subject than I do. I must say I thought we couldn't use record covers. As for Salvatore Fisichella, the whole thing is really a potential copyright violation, so I guess the pictures are as well . . . --Kleinzach 08:05, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

I know those photos were uploaded by User:Voceditenore and I have nothing against her. As I said earlier, it is good if we could have all those photos in our articles particularly noted tenors or singers like Carreras, Domingo, Pavarotti and many more. But what puzzled me is, why the admin "disturbed" selected articles only for example, The Three Tenors, Pavarotti, Sherrill Milnes, Maria Callas, Renata Tebaldi, Renata Scotto, Domingo and many more? Look at what happened to The Three Tenors, Pavarotti and Domingo articles, photos in there have been deleted again and again BUT, not in some articles including Carreras? If we want to standardize image rules, we have to make it standard. Since it is allowed in Carreras, I have been thinking to upload photos not only in Domingo's but in other noted articles too. I do not like to argue or find fault, that is why I just keep silent all these while. In Carreras's, there are photos taken from Magazine cover (Image:JoseCarrerasFoundationBulletin.jpg), album cover (Image:CarrerasRicciarelliCDBoheme.jpg), scene from performance (Image:RomanzaFinalScreenShot.jpg) AND photo when he was young (Image:JoseCarrerasAge8.jpg). The question is, are they allowed? P/S: I would seriously thank to God if the admin could confirmed that they are allowed because, I have complete collection of Domingo's recorded opera (DVD and VHS) and hundreds of CDs, imagine if I could take screenshot of all that (include other baritones, tenors and sopranos who performed with Domingo). About photo when Domingo was young, I have photos when he was 6 and 17 and 21. Can I upload that too? You dont have to answer this but just think about what I say - Jay (talk) 03:58, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

A lot of it depends on the way the fair use rationale is written and the documentation supplied with the upload. The Three Tenors album image was deleted because the image lacked a properly argued fair use rationale. Given that Pavarotti is now dead, a properly written rationale would succeed, either for a press image of the 1990 Rome concert on the basis that it captured an unrepeatable historical moment, or for the album, provided there was substantial critical commentary on it. The Renata Tebaldi photo was deleted because it was completely missing a non-free use rationale (otherwise it would have been OK since she is deceased). Renata Scotto and Sherill Milnes are both still alive. (There is potential fair use rationale that could be applied in those cases though. "However, for some retired or disbanded groups, or retired individuals whose notability rests in large part on their earlier visual appearance, a new picture may not serve the same purpose as an image taken during their career, in which case the use would be acceptable." See Wikipedia:Non-free content.)

The fair use photo of Pavarotti as Rodolfo in La bohème remains because it provides full information about the source and a well-argued fair use rationale ("Image is used solely for the illustration of the subject in one of his most celebrated roles, that of Rodolfo in La Boheme. The importance of Pavarotti's portrayal of this role is commented on in depth in the article.") Some of the Maria Callas photos were removed because they had poor or no documentation as to the source and copyright holder - essential for fair use images. The remaining ones were allowed because the documentation was adequate, she is deceased and a free replacement for identification is no longer possible, and/or because they illustrate a significant aspect of her life (at least in terms of the article), e.g., after her weight loss.

The rationale for the Carreras, age 8 singing on Spanish National radio says that it captures an unrepeatable historical moment, and a significant event on the subject's life, which is allowed. (It might also form the basis for keeping the Fisichella photo showing him in his Met debut. (Still under review over at Wikimedia). Likewise, magazine covers and album covers may be used to identify the album or magazine (as opposed to illustrating the article's subject) if (1) the article contains critical or significant discursive commentary on it and (2) the magazine or album does not have an article of its own. They cannot be used however, to simply illustrate a list of recordings. Hence the rationale for the DVD of Carreras in the live performance of Andrea Chenier at La Scala, and the magazine cover in a section devoted to his leukemia foundation and its magazine. An administrator reviewed the screen shot from Romanza Final (a fictionalized account of the life of Julián Gayarre) and allowed it because it illustrated the only movie (as opposed to videoed stage performances) in which he had appeared. However he/she removed that screenshot from the Julián Gayarre article, as it was less germane to that article than it was in José Carreras and already being used there under fair use. The album cover with Ricciarelli is probably borderline, but so far the admins who reviewed the other photos in José Carreras have left it, perhaps because it appears in a discussion about his 13 year artistic partnership with her (and the many recordings they made together for Philips) and says so in the rationale.

This may not apply to the Domingo article, but stamps can be used in an article, not to identify the subject, but to illustrate a particular stamp which is discussed in the article. See for example its use in Juan Diego Flórez. Likewise the fair use rationales for Image:JoseCarrerasStamp.jpg and Image:Joan Sutherland Stamp.jpg.

Hope this helps. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 06:37, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Addenda Another aspect of fair use images on Wikipedia is that preferably they should have already been published online elsewhere. A scan of a copyright image (from a book or the actual photo) which has never been published online is much less likely to succeed unless it has a strong rationale. Also, there should be judicious use of fair use images in a single article, and the number should be proportional to the length of the article. Galleries of fair use images are never acceptable. Voceditenore (talk) 07:45, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for such a detailed exposition. Does this modify the view in Wikipedia:WikiProject_Opera#Images_and_fair_use and if so does the latter need rewriting? I'm wondering whether we can create a new subpage with all the detailed explanation. Perhaps Wikipedia:WikiProject Opera/Images, copyright and fair use? Would you like to create the page and then ask the Project to approve it? I think that might be the easiest way to go about it. --Kleinzach 11:35, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your explanation. I used the same reason "it captures an unrepeatable moment" for Domingo's screenshot as Cavaradossi because we all know that at his age now, there is no way for him to play the role anymore - it was deleted. It goes the same with screenshot as Calaf. And the cover of Parsifal refers to his debut in 1995 at the Bayreuth Festival as written in the first paragraph - it was deleted too with reason "Album covers are not allowed!". Some of the reasons given by the admin are too basic, they keep talking about legal and rights while in the same time, the very same type of photos are allowed in other articles. This is the part I don’t get it. However, I will try again to upload some of the photos that I think deserve to be in the article. And let see what they have to say. Sometimes I feel like they have special radar to sniff photos related to "Jay" and "Domingo"! When I uploaded 2 photos given by Mr. Domingo PR, I had a hard time with the admin despite telling them that I have the written permission from Placido Domingo’s public relation officer. I have to justify again and again, and finally the admin in Wikipedia accepted it (after long arguments), but I lose in WikiCommons. Those 2 photos were removed from WikiCommons but they are allowed in Wikipedia, strange!. That is why I just wonder how photos in Carreras articles can stay when photos in Domingo and many other articles have to go through all the troubles before they could be granted "citizenship" to be in Wiki. - Jay (talk) 12:29, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Jay, as I pointed out above, in the non-Domingo articles, the problems were almost exclusively lack of detailed copyright information and/or a fair use rationale. With your Domingo photos, it may have to do with the way your rationales were written and the amount of text in the article devoted to the particular subject illustrated by the image. Also, it's hard to make the case for a screen shot of him as Cavaradossi or Calaf as a unique historical event in Domingo's career since he sang those roles many times. Likewise, unless there is critical commentary about the Parsifal album itself, it's not an apt illustration for commentary on his Bayreuth stage debut. So that may also be part of the problem. If I were you, I'd avoid uploading screen shots and album covers altogether at the moment, as these raise alarm bells with admins, some of whom take a very generic approach, especially for fair use images uploaded after the end of March 2007 when the Wikimedia Foundation Licensing Policy Resolution was adopted. If you are determined to add another photo, I would try one production photo first, making sure it was highly relevant to the article, in a highly significant performance in terms of his career, with plenty of article text devoted to that subject and providing a well-written, detailed rationale for its use. You may still have problems though, as arguably Otello is his signature role, and there is already is a photo of that in the article.

By the way, I can see why you had problems with the Otello photo, especially at the Commons. In looking at the Image:Domingo OtelloJ2.jpg page, you did not explictly state that a copy of the permission from Domingo's PR people is on file with Wikipedia. Did they or you mail their detailed permission and type of license to permissions-en@wikimedia.org? If so, you should state that on the image page. Also the page doesn't state who the photographer was nor does it state that Domingo actually owns the copyright to the photo. He may well not actually. It's obviously by a professional stage photographer and looks extremely similar to one that I bought for my mother. Also are you sure it's from the ROH? It looks much more like a photo from a La Scala production that I bought for my mother.

Kleinzach, I'll be happy to write that new page, but it may take me a couple of days to get around to it as I'm currently in the process of updating my own web site. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 14:59, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Absolutely no hurry as ever. Best. --Kleinzach 15:02, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

About commons, I was too tired to explain to them. They claimed that the note under the main photo is a "problem". According to them, it is not a free-use when users have to keep the "credit to photographer's" part. When Wikipedia admins have accepted both photos here, I just let them delete it. And, regarding the Otello's photo, according to the lady PR, it is "Otello 1992 at Royal Opera House opposite Kiri Te Kanawa and Sergei Leiferkus. The photo was taken for the opera promotion, not on stage". I do not plan to upload Cavarodossi or Calaf screenshot at the moment, but I'm thinking of (still thinking) uploading Domingo's photo with his father when he was 16, and then his photo performing on stage with his mother <<these are historical events, unless if the admins think otherwise - Jay (talk) 15:29, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Please help!!!

I am in an edit war on the Kathleen Battle page. I would appriciate your input.Nrswanson (talk) 23:37, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

"Comic Opera"

In English, this is a widely accepted term - although I agree it is a rather silly one. The operettas of Arthur Sullivan (especially the ones with libretti by W.S. Gilbert) were for commercial reasons NOT called "operettas" (this was Victorian England, and operettas were widely considered "naughty") but "comic operas". This seems to have cemented the term in English, as a very close synonym for operetta, but one which many enthusiasts of English music, especially Sullivan, still seem to take very seriously. On the whole, I can't be bothered arguing this point any further - but all the same if The Mikado is a "comic opera" then Die fledermaus is definitely another! I don't think mentioning both terms together hurts, but... I let it rest.

May terminology be the least of our worries! --Soundofmusicals (talk) 01:48, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, I agree with everything you say - except the last point about Die Fledermaus which (dare I say) is backwards logic. If you have a look you will see the J Strauss works are all described as operettas. Also note there is a special genre Category:English comic operas but not one for comic operas because there is no such genre. Thanks for giving me the opportunity to explain. --Kleinzach 02:00, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

From Cg2p0B0u8m

Kleinzach I am not sure how to reply to your message, so I hope this reaches you. Yes, I will try to contribute more to Wikipedia - many musical subjects, but I have had broadband problems and have been travelling a lot, but hope to put more things online soon. I will try to learn the rules as I go along rather than mug up before I put things on the page. G —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cg2p0B0u8m (talk • contribs) 16:41, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Andy Vores' operas

Hello! Thank you for your message on my Talk Page regarding my entry for Andy Vores. I had no immediate plans to write articles on his two operas, although I did include mention of "No Exit" within the existing article on the Sartre play. You are more than welcome to cover those topics. Thank you for your feedback! Ecoleetage (talk) 12:23, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

I can get to them - I just put them on my "to do" list. No need to delete. Ecoleetage (talk) 14:12, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I just created them -- starting as stubs, with room to expand. At least there are no more red links. Thanks! Ecoleetage (talk) 15:44, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Maestro

Hi! I didn’t make the redirect, I think; when I came across the page, Ustad redirected to Maestro, which is just wrong, and I tried to correct that, maybe I messed up – Bossk-Office (talk) 20:41, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Kathleen Battle

A concern

Perhaps I am being a bit paranoid but I am somewhat concerned as to the motives of Hrannar. If you look at his/her edit log the only article that he/she has contributed to is the Kathleen Battle page. The edit history seems to also indicate a desire to sugar coat the Met firing from the very begining and make Battle appear in the most positive light. Given the edit history, I suspect Hrannar is either a die hard fan with a personal agenda or perhaps even Battle heself. I'm probably just being silly.Nrswanson (talk) 14:46, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your message. I don't see a huge disagreement here so I'm hoping we can resolve the issue. Perhaps the voice articles (many of them needing urgent cleanup) are actually more important than the Battle battle? --Kleinzach 00:02, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Help now please!

Kleinzach please pay attention to the Kathleen Battle discussion. Things are not going well and I am begining to lose confidence in reaching a solution with Hrannar. If things continue as they are then I may have to go up to the next level in conflict resolution. Thank you for your help.Nrswanson (talk) 03:00, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

How do I restore discussions appear modified, that were unintentional?

As a wikipedia expert, can you tell me how to revert a talk page (after several edits have already been done) back to a particular state. The changes made were not additional discussion; rather, they were changes, user indicates they were unintentional, to my own responses.

WOULD LIKE RESTORED BACK TO THIS 0RIGINAL DISCUSSION PAGE: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Kathleen_Battle&diff=231508143&oldid=231507773

CURRENT VERSION (where several key discussions are no longer available and current discussions are, as user stated unintentionally, modified) http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Kathleen_Battle&diff=231518895&oldid=231518773

For a clearer example of how convesation between us (and my own comments look very edited) please open both versions referenced above in separate windwows, than scroll down to the bottom. See the placement of my comment in the original discussion page. That's just one example.

I have already addressed it with user and let him know I would seek how to restore it so the inadvertent changes he made are repaired. Hrannar (talk) 20:28, 12 August 2008 (UTC)Hrannar

• In investigating the matter further Hrannar himself made the changes and not me to the conversation. See here:[2] and intermediate edits all by Hrannar. Obviously inadvertently sense he is now complaining. I never moved or altered his words in any place according to the edit log which I have now reviewed thoroughly. If Hrannar wishes to change something back he can. I did do I direct copy paste from the talk page to the archive without moving or altering anything. The purposes for doing this were to avoid two simultaneous conversations now that the discussion has moved to another page. An archive is useful not only for back reference but for avoiding spliting of the conversation off onto multiple pages. This seems not only reasonable but essential for fruitful discussion.Nrswanson (talk) 21:11, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Nrswansson and kleinzach, i am very sorry and embarrassed at my error. My confusion came from the fact that fairly substantial text I had written had been copied. When I saw the copied text in another location and below a response I had written to something else, I believed the response had been moved. I did understand that it all had been inadvertant and was in no way blamatory to you. Which is why I came here for help. Again, please accept my apologies, especially you nrswansson. And KLEINZACH, please ignore my request for help here. It was my misunderstanding. Thanks. Hrannar (talk) 21:27, 12 August 2008 (UTC)Hrannar

No problem. Mistakes happen.Nrswanson (talk) 21:39, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Is everything OK now? I'm on a different time zone here so I will probably be sleeping when you are both active. --Kleinzach 22:43, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

No. Hrannar refuses to archive the discussion on the KB talk page which now makes for two open discussions. Could you please talk to him about the wisdom of keeping everything on one page. Thank you.Nrswanson (talk) 00:38, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Kleinzach - I just saw this conversation. I taught two classes yesterday and one today. And I don't access the computer late evenings, if you haven't already noticed. I have already apologized and said there is no need to restore the conversation. On that point, to answer your question, Kleinzach, this is ok. As I said, please ignore my request for help here. Hrannar (talk) 21:55, 13 August 2008 (UTC)Hrannar

No. I think you both have to work this out. I also see you have not had any response at Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard. Unfortunately you have both been writing too much. This is a disincentive for anyone else getting involved. It simply takes too long for anyone to work out what you are both trying to say. --Kleinzach 00:47, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

For what it's worth, kleinzach, nrswansson did not really allow the us both to work it out, as you suggested. Of course, I have work during the day and sneak in editing from time to time during breaks and lunch. I had to teach today and spent the majority of the day preparing. And I am not at the computer usually after 7pm EST. For example, I will sign off soon, but will be back tomorrow. Hrannar (talk) 21:55, 13 August 2008 (UTC)Hrannar

BTW archiving is normal when a page gets to 30K+. The archives are still accessible, although they can't be edited. New topics can always be started as necessary. --Kleinzach 00:51, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

To be honest Kleinzach, I don't see a way to make this work. I am going to give up. Hrannar fights me on everything and I'd rather spend my time doing something constructive to the encyclopedia.Nrswanson (talk) 00:54, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, maybe a good idea to give it a rest for a couple of weeks. Good opportunity to work on all those voice articles that have all the tags on them! --Kleinzach 00:58, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Kleinzach - Have you seen the current Kathleen Battle talk page? Is this appropropriate for an wikipedia editor to make comments of another editor in this way? It just doesn't seem right to me. Hrannar (talk) 21:55, 13 August 2008 (UTC)Hrannar

As I wrote above, perhaps it would be best to give it a rest for a couple of weeks? Best. --Kleinzach 22:58, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

civility concern

Kleinzach - Thanks for all your previous help. Nrswanson has made the following statements on the talk page. Sure makes me look bad. He is welcome to his opinion, but now I feel this is inappropriate and suspect it borders on slander. Please advise on what an editor can do if he/she has this concern.

• "Not enough common ground and good will on the part of Hrannar has been achieved to make me feel that I can work well with him.... However, I will caution other editors that a strong amount of cencorship has been advocated by Hrannar and that I believe this has had and will have a negative impact on this article's neutrality and integrity. I have archived our discussion in Archive 2. Best of luck to all"

• It also seems nrswansson may be obscuring an entire discussion, because he seems displeased with some of the things said (he asked me to REMOVE them); shortly after I did not agree to remove them, he archived the discussion. How convenient. Seems like censorship to me. When I explained my rationale, he claims "not enough...good will on [my] part" and archived them. I have no problem with archiving, but archiving them at this point will obscure much relevant discussions and in my opinion, disprove various claims nrswanson makes about me, including his current claim that there is "not enough...good will on [my] part" and that "censcorship has been advocated by [me]."

Entire article here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Kathleen_Battle

Hrannar (talk) 13:31, 13 August 2008 (UTC)Hrannar

• I have left the following message on Hrannar's talk page:

"Hrannar I have chosen to not participate in this conversation anymore, so please just leave me alone. I archived it because you and I were the only significant participants beyond two mediators who now have nothing to mediate. The conversation is now over and the best place for it is to archive it, for the health of the talk page if nothing else. Members can still puruse the archives as they please. I do not take back what I said because I believe it to be true. I will ,however, archive my last statement with the past discussion if you prefer. It really serves no purpose sense the conversation is now over. Go ahead and do what you want with the article. I will not revert or contest anything you do on the talk page or otherwise. I have given up trying to work with you for several reasons. One, you have never for one minute even acknowledged an ounce of validity in any arguement I have made in the last several weeks. 2. You seem to have a vendeta to destroy my credibility in the wiki community by airing my past mistakes, even after I have admitted to them (a long time ago I might add). Repeated attempts to ask you not to do this failed. 3. You have also fought me on several very minor and practical points to the point of high frustration. In short I think you just like to disagree with me now out of spite and I can't work with someone like that.Nrswanson (talk) 19:20, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Just out of interest...User:Gretab

I don't know if you remember this, but you were quite right to "assume bad faith" about that User:Gretab[3]. "She" is now permanently banned by Moreschi as a sock puppet and a troll. --Folantin (talk) 10:02, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

A note of thanks

		The Tireless Contributor Barnstar
		This is an award to you Kleinzach for your consistant excellent work at the opera project as both an editor and what I would call one of our unofficial leaders. I appreciate everything you do. Nrswanson (talk) 11:59, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Another note of thanks

Hello Kleinzach. Thanks for your note regarding my edit to The Tales of Hoffman. I read it and reread it and I couldn't get that item to make sense. I appreciate your note about the theatre fire as learning new things is one of the joys of editing here. Thanks again and cheers. MarnetteD | Talk 05:45, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Dates

Thanks for the pointer on date formats.Magicpiano (talk) 15:04, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Bot runs

Hi, certainly, what needs doing? If you give me the list of cats and what tags need adding then I can set the process going. RichardΩ612 Ɣ ɸ 19:42, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

To limit the number of false-positives, I will run through the pages that transclude the various stub templates listed at the WPCLASSICAL project page. Based on a quick sample, many, many articles with these templates do not have the class=stub parameter on the talk page. This run should significantly cut down the workload of your human assessors. Later on I can use my other assessment process to assess for other categories if you want. I'll do 50 edits as a start, then they can be checked, etc. before I let the bot loose on the 8000+ other pages! RichardΩ612 Ɣ ɸ 20:45, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Test/trial Y Done, everything went well to my eyes, if you agree then I can do the rest of the transclusions. RichardΩ612 Ɣ ɸ 20:53, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Argh! That's what happens when you're lazy and use an AWB plugin instead of coding your own stuff! Sorry about that, but the reason that I can't use the cat and then look for stub templates is that that would require editing one page based on another, which is extremely complex to code. What I now plan to do instead is the following. When we agree, I can restart the bot using custom code:

• Take the list of transclusions from the various relevant stub templates.
• If and only if the classical banner exists, and no rating is present, rate the article as a Stub.
• If the importance= parameter already exists in the classical banner, strip it out seeing as the project does not use it.

Hopefully this will be completely bugproof, but I will do a few demonstration edits in my userspace to check first. RichardΩ612 Ɣ ɸ 19:18, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Banner

Thanks for letting me know and I will use the banner accordingly. Also, I prefer not to assess articles I have created or substantially worked on. That way I get some feddback from anoth editor.Nrswanson (talk) 01:01, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Ok. I will make sure I do a stub on articles that are short.Nrswanson (talk) 01:18, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Re:Welcome

Hey there, thanks for the welcome I just saw it; shows how much I pay attention. :D I'll be looking at doing bot runs more regularly in the next few months I hope, between trying to recover and school starting up in a few days I have a pretty full load right now. Thanks again for the welcome! §hep • ¡Talk to me! 17:06, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Man of La Mancha

Hi, do you know what Man of La Mancha is actually, an opera or musical theatre? Domingo recorded this album (audio CD) released in 1996 opposite Julia Migenes-Johnson, Samuel Ramey, Rosalind Elias and many more (Recording detail from Amazon.com). I am not sure whether to place this album under "Opera recordings" or "Music recordings". - Jay (talk) 05:24, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Disambiguation pages

Helo. I just thought I'd let you know I'm trying to revert the changes you made to Carlo Bergonzi. If you have a look at WP:MOSDAB, it states that a disambiguation page should be at the person's name, e.g. John Smith, unlss one is far more famous thn the others, i which case he would have the artile 'John Smith' and the dab would be at 'John Smith (disambiguation)'. I just thought I'd let you know the reason. Thanks, Boleyn (talk) 05:35, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

I'll request an admin make the change, leave it with me. Boleyn (talk) 05:48, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

I've requested the move, though apparently there is a backlog. I had to put signs on both pages to let people know what we're doing, but it should all besorted within a couple of days. Boleyn (talk) 05:58, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Translation

Hi, can you tell what will be appropriate translation of Wissenschaftliches Institut zur Erforschung der Tabakgefahren - Scientific Institute for the Study of Tobacco Hazards, Institute for the Struggle Against Tobacco Hazards or Institute for Tobacco Hazards Research? Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 07:24, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

I've had a look at this but I'm not sure myself. I usually only translate stuff connected with music. I think you need to ask someone with better German than I possess. Good luck. --Kleinzach 07:32, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Opera resources and a note

I just signed up for Grove online. That should help. Thanks for catching those errrors. I assumed (incorrectly) that Stanford would have gone to more care putting together such an extensive resource. Also, I was just purusing the composer wikiproject mainpage and several of the links to the operaproject discussion on infoboxes don't work (they go to uncreated pages). I figured you might know where they should be linking to.Nrswanson (talk) 08:51, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Congratulations re Grove. Was it expensive? (I use books. ) I'll check the Composers links. --Kleinzach 09:02, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Links now fixed. I think this happened because some redirects had been deleted. --Kleinzach 09:14, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

RE: Rhiannon Thomas

Per the Proposed Deletion guidelines, contested PRODs may be recreated by request, as anybody, including the original author, could have contested its deletion. Feel free to AFD it, as the user was informed that doing so would be a possibility. - Rjd0060 (talk) 02:29, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Time limit for what? To start an AFD? No, you are free to start it whenever you wish. - Rjd0060 (talk) 02:32, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Nope; contested prod's can be restored or recreated at any time. - Rjd0060 (talk) 02:35, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Isabel Bayrakdarian Photo

I do think the gentleman named Rob McAlear who keeps on posting his not so flattering photo of Isabel Bayrakdarian is trying to discredit her. I do ask that the photo not be used. And it is very easy to ask her agent or her webmaster permission for one her numerous publicity shots to be posted on her wikipedia page. Their information can be found on her website in the contact section.

www.bayrakdarian.com

In the meantime, I have removed the photo. 11:34, 28 August 2008 User:Pashabaran (Talk | contribs)

Hello, Pashabaron. This is Rob McAlear. . . [message deleted] . . .Rob McAlear (talk) 02:05, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

I've asked Rob McAlear to contact Pashabaron directly. --Kleinzach 02:13, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

General opera navigation boxes

Sorry for that. Dont know how it got deleted when I added Ponchielli's. - Jay (talk) 05:15, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

No problem! Best. --Kleinzach 05:16, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Rhiannon Thomas

Hello. I noticed you put up Rhiannon Thomas for deletion. Could you explain why it's being deleted? Also, could you reply on my talk page instead of this one. Thanks.--Andrzejestrować Zajaczajkowski Plecaxpiwórserafinowiczaświadzenie Poświadczyxwiadectwo-Bjornovich (talk) (contributions) 08:58, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes of course, please see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Rhíannon Thomas. Thanks. --Kleinzach 09:01, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Offenbach

It's a matter of consistency: on the Offenbach page, Stage Works are divided into Operettas, Opera and Derivative works [BTW, isn't there C20 operatic concoction called Robinson Crusoe as well as the ballet?], and Operettas points to the list. That's why I removed Hoffmann. A List of stage works by Offenbach could include it. Or indeed a List of operas, since the dividing line is unclear. --GuillaumeTell 15:13, 28 August 2008 (UTC) (Off for a week in the Highlands in late September - it'll be the first time I've been north of Loch Lomond!)

Not sure you really addressed my point above. On Crusoe, yes, what I actually meant was Christopher Columbus - well, they were both seafaring chaps. Scotland: not really a walking trip (downhill through the Samariá Gorge rendered me practically immobile for a couple of days in 2004, while 20 years ago I was able to walk back up a day later without too many ill-effects), more of a gastronomic trip, but my companions are Scottish and will be wanting to point out the sights. --GuillaumeTell 00:29, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Throwing you at featured sounds

Here is the Polacca from the opera "Le Trompeur Trompe" by Pierre Gaveaux : [4] It is from [5], here is the recording information. The source is Al Goldstein Pandora Records music collection, and the licence is {{OAL}} at commons - just put that intot he "Permissions" box.

I have far more things to work on than I could ever do. So I'm going to be evil. =) Poke me if you have any trouble. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 12:01, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry but this is not something I want to take on. There is no article on Le trompeur trompé and I have no information on this work. --Kleinzach 12:50, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Ah, fair enough. Oh, well, I'll put it in my queue if noone takes it up =) Shoemaker's Holiday (tal