Talk:Ketchup
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Contents

Dead horse

I recently reverted an edit saying that "Dead horse" was Aussie slang for ketchup. It sounds like rubbish to me, but as someone has called me on Assume Good Faith, I'll ask here. Is it? SkylineBNR34 09:49, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Ketchup and US Politics

While it is true that Bush supportes started covering up Heinz labels and produced 'alternative' ketchups during the election, I also heard that T. Heinz was no longer involved in the Heinz corporation. Is that true? If so, it should follow the 'as not to add to his opponent's campaign coffers.[9]' comment.

207.69.137.24 14:20, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Tomato Sauce?

Ketchup is known as Tomato Sauce in Australia - perhaps in other countries too?? (suspect U.K.)

In the United States we're schizophrenic on this subject. Some say ketchup and some say catsup. Even the manufacturers can't make up their minds. Tomato sauce is something else again -- a canned substance made up of liquified tomato with salt added. -- Zoe
Yeah in the UK it's usually called 'Tomato Sauce' but Ketchup is almost as common. 80.46.160.59 02:52 Nov 24, 2002 (UTC)
In the UK, we call it "tomato ketchup" or "tomato sauce". Now that I come to think of it, I'm not sure which is used more often. I mean, if I'm buying it in a shop, I'll look for "H**** Tomato Ketchup" (phew, averted some inadvertent advertising there), but when I ask for it, I might ask for the... tomato ketchup, actually. Ah, looks like that wins. Except if I'm reverting to a childlike state, in which case it's "red sauce" (as opposed to "brown sauce", of course). I suspect it depends who you ask... Oh - I see that it does. Sorry, 80.46.160.59, I wrote this before I saw your response, and I can't be bothered to change it now! (Oh, but I suppose I should add that we never call it "catsup"!) -- Oliver Pereira 03:06 Nov 24, 2002 (UTC)
Oh, it's all too confusing. Now I've started thinking that I might call it "tomato sauce" more often after all... But why am I wasting my time thinking about such trivial things? Perhaps I should just go to bed... -- Oliver Pereira 03:08 Nov 24, 2002 (UTC)
I just added "catsup" as a redirect to "ketchup". I'm surprised you guys didn't already add it yet you insisted on having the traditional debate. Tjdw 03:16, 13 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I've never known anyone to call it Ketchup outside of TV shows.

In the USA, "tomato sauce" refers to what amounts to a very thin and unseasoned marinara sauce, the major ingredients are tomato, water, salt, with some added items that vary. Dogface 11:28, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
Nik nah 06:40, 15 January 2007 (UTC) Ketchup is not very popular in Australia. It's referred to as tomato sauce in Mcdonalds because they only sell ketchup there and no one is used to using the word ketchup so they call it tomato sauce. But in the supermarkets, there is definately a difference between the two: http://upcolaph2.colesmyer.com.au/fcgi-bin/sam.fcg?aab=VK584cS116&aaa=013&aac=3794&aag=All+Sauces
Well, the condiment this article covers is called Tomato Sauce by me, and as far as I know, everyone I know, everyone and anyone I buy it from, and the labelling. I too live in Australia, by the way. It is popular, it goes on meat pies and hot chips. I went to the Philippines, they call it Ketchup, but never once did I taste anything that remotely reminded me of tomatoes.
What is this 'Brown Sauce'? Worcestershire Sauce, Gravy, Barbecue Sauce?--The Chairman (Shout me · Stalk me) 12:57, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
There's actually a difference between ketchup and Australian tomato sauce and it is more likely to be noticed by people used to ketchup than the other way round - The difference is the absence of vinegar in tomato sauce. It's basically the same thing and used for the same purposes, but the lack of vinegar makes it less tangy. Australian tomato sauce is also not quite as viscous as ketchup. 70.189.213.149 11:49, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Surprising no one's mentioned Heinz.

That picture is pointless and should be removed. -- stewacide 07:46, 16 Dec 2003 (UTC)

  • Regarding the new caption:
Tomato and ketchup. No, it's not really made this way.
... Ha! I know it's not quite appropriate in an encyclopedic context, but it's amusing, so I will look the other way and see if anyone else changes it. As for the picture... it's interesting. At least it's a lot more professional looking than someone's photo of a bottle of ketchup in their fridge. - Eisnel 00:11, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Please add recipes and nutrition analysis. Thank you. I've already added the fluid mechanics, vaccum dehydration and HDPE squeeze bottles. Please, let there be science!

Etymology

I think the word "茄汁" could have been a mistake.

Both the Oxford English Dictionary and Encyclopedia Britannica states that the Chinese words similar to "ketchup" means a brine of pickled fish. How the Canton word for tomato sauce fits in this picture I dont understand. There is obviously a serious mistake here. Could someone look into the Chinese signs, please?

If ketchup indeed originated in Chinam, with the meaning tomato sauce, this would indeed be sensational. Signifying that the chinese invented the tomato ketchup, and that the ketchup-variant made from pickled brine, came after. This must be completely wrong. The truth, I suspect, is that the first chinese words for ketchup means brine of pickled fish. -8. JUN 2006.

Or that the word that Westerners picked up, and that eventually became "ketchup", came after the Chinese started using tomatoes (or eggplants) instead of (or as well as) fish. -- Zsero (talk) 14:16, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
The current text (17Mar08) makes it sounds that Indonesian 'ketjap' is a fish sauce, but it is a soy sauce without any fish ingredients, similar to other asian soy sauces (Kikoman). Dirkjot (talk) 11:43, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Today it may not be a fish sauce, but the ketjap that Westerners found in the East Indies in the 17th century was. Ketchup has surely changed as much in the East over the past few centuries as it has in the West. -- Zsero (talk) 14:16, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

The Oxford English Dictionary

Ketchup: [app. ad. Chinese (Amoy dial.) kôechiap or kê-tsiap brine of pickled fish or shell-fish (Douglas Chinese Dict. 46/1, 242/1). Malay kchap (in Du. spelling ketjap), which has been claimed as the original source (Scott Malayan Wds. in English 64-67), may be from Chinese.
The Japanese kitjap, alleged in some recent dicts., is an impossible form for that language. (? error for Javanese.)]
Thats not a Japanese word, no. Probably Malay or Indonesian. c.f http://www.geocities.co.jp/Foodpia/6374/ketchup.htm
The dutch wikipedia believes the name comes from the indonesian soy sauce 'ketjap' (or kecap). (http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketjap)
A sauce made from the juice of mushrooms, walnuts, tomatoes, etc., and used as a condiment with meat, fish, or the like. Often with qualification, as mushroom ketchup, etc.
  • 1711 LOCKYER Acc. Trade India 128
    • Soy comes in Tubbs from Jappan, and the best Ketchup from Tonquin; yet good of both sorts are made and sold very cheap in China.
  • 1748 MRS. HARRISON House-kpr.'s Pocket-bk. i. (ed. 4) 2,
    • I therefore advise you to lay in a Store of Spices, ... neither ought you to be without ... Kitchup, or Mushroom Juice.
  • 1817 BYRON Beppo viii,
    • Buy in gross ... Ketchup, Soy, Chili~vinegar, and Harvey.
  • 1840 DICKENS Barn. Rudge (1849) 91/1
    • Some lamb chops (breaded, with plenty of ketchup).
  • 1874 COOKE Fungi 89
    • One important use to which several ... fungi can be applied, is the manufacture of ketchup.
----
Catchup, Catsup: A liquor extracted from mushrooms, tomatoes, walnuts, etc., used as a sauce. (Common in N. Amer., but in the U.K. now only KETCHUP.)
  • 1690 B. E. Dict. Cant. Crew, Catchup,
    • a high East-India Sauce.
  • 1730 SWIFT Paneg. on Dean Wks. 1755 IV. I. 142
    • And, for our home-bred british cheer, Botargo, catsup, and caveer.
  • 1751 H. GLASSE Cookery Bk. 309
    • It will taste like foreign Catchup.
  • 1832 Veg. Subst. Food 333
    • One ... application of mushrooms is ... converting them into the sauce called Catsup.
  • 1845 E. ACTON Mod. Cookery v. (1850) 136 (L.)
    • Walnut catsup.
  • 1862 Macm. Mag. Oct. 466
    • He found in mothery catsup a number of yellowish globular bodies.

The Encyclopaedia Britannica 16th ed, (1985)

Catsup also spelled Ketchup, spicy liquid condiment widely used in the United States and Great Britain.
U.S. catsup is a sweet puree of tomatoes, onions, and green peppers flavoured with vinegar and pickling spice that is eaten with meats, especially beef, and frequently with french fried potatoes (British chips); it is the universal condiment of fast-food sandwiches.
In Britain, as formerly in the United States, catsup signifies a spicy liquid based on mushrooms, unripe walnuts, or oysters; this catsup functions primarily as a seasoning for cooking.
The word derives from the Chinese ke-tsiap, a fish brine, probably by way of the Malaysian ketjap.

The Encyclopaedia Britannica 11th ed, (1911)

http://36.1911encyclopedia.org/K/KE/KETCHUP.htm (OCR copy, without proofreading)
KETCHUP, also written catsup and katchup (said to be from the Chinese kde-chiap or kS-tsiap, brine of pickled fish), a sauce or relish prepared principally from the juice of mushrooms and of many other species of edible fungi, salted for preservation and variously spiced. The juices of various fruits, such as cucumbers,, tomatoes, and especially green walnuts, are used as a basis of ketchup, and shell-fish ketchup, from oysters, mussels and cockles, is also made; but in general the term is restricted to sauces having the juice of edible fungi as their basis.

The Japanese Wikipedia

http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%82%B1%E3%83%81%E3%83%A3%E3%83%83%E3%83%97

ケチャップの語源は、福建語の「鮭汁 kechiap」であると考えられる。

The origin of "ketchup" was Fujian dialect's "鮭汁" (kechiap).

  • 鮭: salmon in both Japanese and Chinese.
  • 汁: juice in Chinese; soup in Japanese.
  • Fujian (福建): the Province where Amoy City (廈門) is.
この場合の「鮭」は「塩辛」を指す方言字で、サーモンとは無関係。

In this case, "鮭" (salmon) does not mean salmon. It means salted food in that dialect.

I am not sure. I do not speak Amoy dialect.

「鮭汁」は小魚に塩を加えて煮てから発酵させ、濾過して取れるアミノ酸を豊富に含んだ液体、

" 'Salmon' juice" is the juice made from fish cooked in salty walter, fermented, and then filtered. It's a juice rich in amino acids.

すなわちタイのナンプラー、ベトナムのニョクマム、秋田のしょっつるの様な魚醤である。

Other related products in Vietnam and Japan.

これがマレー半島に伝わって「kichap」と呼ばれ

In the Malay peninsula, they called it "kichap".

Another Japanese theory

http://gogensanpo.hp.infoseek.co.jp/main1.html

ケチャップ

Ketchup

現在のケチャップです2003 年1月11日のNHK「ラジオ深夜便」で、リンボウ先生こと林望さんが、「ケチャップの語源は中国語の『茄汁』のようだ」とおっしゃっていました。おお、そうなのか、知らなかった！確かに中国語でトマトのことを「番茄」（ファンチエ）と言うぞ。中国語の「番茄の汁」がケチャップになったとしたら、ぴったりだ。ということで調べてみました。

According to Mr. Ling Wang (林望) (January 11, 2003, NHK), ketchup seems to have been "茄汁" (tomato juice) in Chinese.

  • 茄: Chinese: eggplant; aubergine
  • 蕃茄: Chinese: tomato (lit. babarian's eggplant)
  • 番茄の汁: Japanese: tomato juice
『ランダムハウス英和大辞典第2版』（小学館、1994年）には、英語のketchupの語源はマレー語であり、その語源はさらに中国語の広東方言か廈門方言にさかのぼる。その単語は中国語（共通語）の「茄」＋「汁」と同根である、と書いてありました。

Randomhouse English-Japanese Dictionary 2nd edition (Shogakukan Inc., 1994): "茄汁" (tomato juice).

『世界大百科事典』（平凡社）の「ケチャップ」の項目（平野裕一郎執筆）には、「東南アジアから中国南部にかけての地域で古くから調味に用いられてきた塩蔵魚貝類の浸出液に起源を持つもののようで、中国福建省廈門周辺ではこうした魚醤をケチャップ（koe-chap）と呼ぶところがあり、類語は各地にあった。これが伝わったものか、18～19世紀のイギリスの料理書には、牡蠣、マッシュルーム、クルミ、キュウリのほか、魚や漿果類に食塩、酒、香辛料などを配した各種のケチャップが記載されている」、と書いてありました。

The World Encyclopedic Dictionary (Heibonsha Publishers Ltd.): fish sauce.

昔はいろんなケチャップがあったけれど、いまではケチャップと言えばトマトで作ったケチャップを指すようになったようです。魚醤に起源を持つとなるとケチャップの語源が「茄汁」であるというのは、ちょっとあやしくなります。

"茄汁" (tomato juice) becomes less convincing.

『オックスフォード・イングリッシュ・ディクショナリー（OED）第2版』には、英語のketchupの語源は中国語廈門方言のkoechiapあるいはke-tsiap（塩漬けにした魚介類の汁）である。マレー語のkechapはおそらく中国語に由来する、と書いてあります。

OED: fish sauce (see previous explaination).

周長楫編『廈門方言詞典』（江蘇教育出版社、1998年）を調べると、「【月＋奚】」（発音をかなで書けばクエ）という語が載っていました。そしてその意味は「塩漬けにした水産品」です。廈門方言と台湾語はどちらも中国語の閩南方言に属し、非常に近い関係にあります。そこで台湾語の辞書も調べてみました。

Zhou's (周長楫) Amoy Dialect Dictionary (Jiangsu Educational Press, 1988): pickled sea foods.

台湾総督府編『台湾語大辞典』（国書刊行会、原本1931年）に「コエ鮭」（小魚や蝦などを塩に漬けたもの。塩辛）という単語とともに、「コエチァプ 鮭汁」（肴に塩したとき出る汁）という単語が載っていました。

Taiwan's dialect is similar to Amoy's.

Taiwan Dialect Dictionary (1931, published by the pre-WW II Japanese occupation government): "鮭汁" ('salmon' juice).

OEDによれば、英語のketchupの初出は1711年です。そのころ廈門はまだ貿易港としては発展していません。当時の福建省南部で貿易港として栄えていたのは彰州です。彰州の言葉も廈門と同じ閩南方言です。でも廈門と少し発音が異なるところがあるようです。東方孝義編『台日新辞書』（台湾警察協会、1931年）によると、廈門の「コエ」は彰州の「ケ」に対応するのだそうです。もしそうなら彰州では「鮭汁」を「ケチャップ」と発音するはずです。英語のketchupにより近くなります。

Author's theory:

  • Amoy was not an international harbor in 1711 (OED's first instance); another harbor "彰州" was.
    • Amoy dialect: "ko-i"
    • 彰州 dialect: "ke"
  • English: kechup
『ランダムハウス』では英語のketchupの直接の語源はマレー語だとしていました。武富正一著『馬来語大辞典』（欧文社、1942年）を調べると、確かに「kechap」（ただしkechapのeは日本語のエではなくウに近い音）という単語が載っていました。その意味は「醤油、ソース」で、そして「中華語の転訛したる語」と書いてあります。どうもマレー語のkechapはもともと魚醤の意味だったものが、醤油に変化したようです。さて、英語の ketchupの直接の語源はマレー語でしょうか、それとも中国語でしょうか？中国語の閩南方言だと考えて不都合はないと思われるので、ここでは中国語であるとしておきます。

More about the Malay word. Too tired to translate this paragraph.

結論：中国語閩南方言「鮭汁（コエチャップ）」→ 英語「ketchup」→ 日本語「ケチャップ」。(2003.2.4)

Conclusion: Chinese dialect 鮭汁 -> English "ketchup" -> Japanese "ケチャップ" (ke-chia-pu) (February 4, 2003)

My opinion

As a native Chinese speaker, I always use "魚" (yu, please use French pronounciation) to describe "fish". "鮭" is only used for "salmon" (鮭魚). Personally, I think both theories are somewhat fishy. The usage of "鮭" in Taiwanese, as far as I know, is also very restricted. -- Toytoy 02:54, Aug 25, 2004 (UTC)


In Cantonese

In the 19th century most of the immigrants from china to the USA spoke cantonese. --Nik nah 08:19, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Malay

I'm no expert, but Merriam-Webster cites the origin as Malay, so I've added that to the article with a citation. --GentlemanGhost (talk) 23:26, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

There aren't any contradicting theories here. The Malay word comes from Chinese and this is agreed upon by ALL Malay etymologists. Morinae (talk) 09:44, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Bottling

There really should be a section on bottling, such as when the modern glass and squeeze bottles were introduced and by whom and the like. I'd really like to know who to glare at for keeping glass bottles around :P. Really, glass ketchup bottles are a nuisance. We should boycott them. --Zeromaru 19:23, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

There is another technique for getting ketchup and similar (or merely thick enough) liquids out of bottles: contents must get near the opening before bottle is opened. This may involve keeping the bottle upsidedown (especially as some bottles are designed for that) or even hitting its cap while holding upsidedown. saimhe 12:10, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

No, plastic bottles are an abomination. We should shoot their inventor into the sun. Glass bottles forever!!!Dogface 19:25, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Mushrooms!

It's natural that the article should concentrate on tomato ketchup, given it's prominence, but I feel there should be more mention/discussion of mushroom ketchup, as it is a prominent condiment, and to a prominent ketchup. 23:17, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes, indeed. I believe that for non-English speakers the word "ketchup" may exclusively associate with tomatoes -- for example, I always wondered why ketchup is mentioned in Gathering Mushrooms by Clannad. saimhe 12:10, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Sugar

There is no mention of the very high sugar content of ketchup, nor of how much of an impact this has in the condiment's overall "flavor profile".Dogface 11:29, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Is there any non-Heinz picture to put here ?!

How come we have only pictures of Heinz products. There are other brands aren't they ?

Irrelevance

"Heinz have also stated that their iconic labels, attached to all their products "are printed by a label printer, the labels are printed in large batches at any one time"."

Unlike every other product in the world, whose labels are hand-drawn? What the hey is this piece of dubious (and incomprehensible) trivia doing in the Ketchup article? I'm deleting it, restore it if you can explain its relevance to ketchup or in fact anything at all. Unigolyn 00:08, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Red sauce/red gravy?

Changed the intro which claims these terms are used "interchangeably" with tomato sauce in various countries. Certainly not the case in Australia where tomato sauce is the primary name, nor in New Zealand to my knowledge. If this is not accurate and all three terms are used in some countries, Australia at least should be deleted from this list. Fauxvegan 08:44, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

In New Zealand, at least, "red sauce" is unheard of, "ketchup" is the American, sweeter (yes? or some sort of difference) kind, the sort you get in those little sachets in McDonalds. And not many other places. "Tomato sauce" is by far the most common term and item, and it's certainly not interchangeable with ketchup, or any of the others - they're definitely recognised as two different (but related, in that they're both made from tomatoes and have similar purposes) products. "Catsup" I'd never even heard until I saw it on The Simpsons, or "red sauce" until I saw it on some British sitcom where I'm sure it was some sort of affectation I didn't get. That section could definitely be clearer. Actually, this whole article is pretty poorly put together, with vague generalisations and Americocentricity. It could do with a tidy-up or a rewrite. 210.54.98.215 08:44, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Bitter? How?

The article claims that tomato ketchup includes all five basic tastes. It clearly has ingredients for salt, sweet (sugar), sour (vinegar), and savory (tomato). None of the other ingredients are bitter, and I'm not sure whether it's even possible to have sour (acid) and bitter (alkali) tastes together in a blended product. One of the two should convert to salt upon mixing. Bradd 15:01, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Hm, I found this in the article at gladwell.com, reporting the results of a formal taste test: "For Heinz, the critical flavor components—vinegar, salt, tomato I.D. (over-all tomato-ness), sweet, and bitter—were judged to be present in roughly equal concentrations, and those elements, in turn, were judged to be well blended." That would support the claims of all five flavors, in balance. Still, I'm suspicious, partly because the chemistry of it doesn't make sense, partly because ketchup doesn't taste bitter at all to me personally. (And why would you want it to taste bitter? Bitterness is nigh-universally unpleasant.) Bradd 15:21, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Is that why so many people drink coffee?92.0.125.201 (talk) 00:23, 31 May 2008 (UTC)Lance Tyrell

Urban Legend?

Is there any truth to something i heard. It didn't seem to mention it in the article. Was Ketchup was sold in the 1830s as medicine? 203.222.110.46 06:44, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

No, of course not! It was a well-known sauce used with food. And it was something one made at home, not something one bought from a snake oil salesman. And almost the defining characteristic of patent medicines was the weird names their makers gave them, so as to stand out in people's minds. Sorry, this makes no sense. Zsero 07:57, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Cold ketchup... Grosser than Gross

My wife and I constantly fight over whether or not to put Ketchup in the fridge. I hate cold ketchup, she loves driving my crazy; is there any actually evidence I can throw at her for why we should not put this culinary life blood in the refrigerator?

Thanks, —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.174.25.7 (talk) 18:23, 5 February 2007 (UTC).

Is botcholism a good enough reason for you? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.69.137.24 (talk) 14:15, 4 March 2007 (UTC).
Does "refrigerate after opening" mean anything to you? 76.204.78.109 03:30, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

NO MENTION OF BANANA KETCHUP

I have to say that this is the most incomplete factoid about ketchups I know. What about the Banana Ketchup? where did it originate? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 61.9.74.10 (talk) 17:34, 21 February 2007 (UTC).

Ketchup/Catsup

Is it me or is there a difference between ketchup and catsup? I am utterly convinced that there is, as is my friend? can any one enlighten us? philb 15:29, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

It's you. "Catsup" is just a different spelling of the same word. It's pronounced "ketchup". Zsero 16:41, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
Thanks! :-) philb 09:02, 24 March 2007 (UTC)


This section should be removed from the article entirely. There is no discussion in it as to the origin of the different spellings, and it is little more than a list of television shows that make mention of it. It is not notable, and has no place in an encyclopedic entry. Perhaps some of the references could be merged elsewhere in the article, but it cannot remain in its current form. Wikipedia Policy on trivia sections (the purvey of which this falls under) are quite clear that they are to be avoided. Since this section adds nothing to the article or the examination of the phenomena to which the section is dedicated other than some references to The Simpsons or the King of the Hill, it does not meet notability guidelines, and I have removed it.--Walkeraj (talk) 04:42, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

On the contrary, it is the exact opposite of a trivia section. "Trivia" is not just another word for "pop culture". Rather than a collection of unrelated facts that's bound to keep growing, it's a representative sample of significant examples of a notable aspect of the article's subject. It is an undisputed fact that both spellings exist in the USA, and are equally well-known, and this causes enough confusion to have generated all these pop culture references. The list was edited down about six months ago IIRC; if every mention of the confusion were included it would be much longer. It is in fact "a selectively populated list with a relatively narrow theme", which the very guideline you refer to excludes from its scope.
As for your complaint that there's no analysis, feel free to add some, but beware of OR. -- Zsero (talk) 05:56, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
I respectfully disagree. While you're correct that trivia is not always synonymous with pop culture, what enrichment does this bring to the article? Absolutely none. It is, by definition, entirely trivial. Sections like this can (and have become) a problem on Wikipedia. People want to contribute something, but lack the expertise and sources/data to give actual analysis or do research, so they find (or create) a trivia section and fill it with lists of references in cartoons, songs or television shows (check the trivia section history for Zippo, it's abysmal). Yes, both spellings exist in the USA. This is a fact to be noted. The episodes of the Simpsons or the King of the Hill it has appeared in, along with relevant lines delivered by Bart Simpson and Cotton Hill, are not relevant to this phenomena. They are cultural reflections on it and perhaps there is a place for them, but it is not in the Main Body of the article. Put another way, do you think it would be tolerated if you were to edit Wikipedia:Trivia sections and add a reference to this XKCD comic? "Original Research" is a similar problem with a more insidious result, as you are no doubt keenly aware. Since I am not in possession of expertise or sources in etymology, I will not (and should not) perform this kind of research. On the whole, it is far more appropriate to note the differences in spelling, use an {{expandsection}} tag, and move the specifics to the discussion page or elsewhere. --Walkeraj (talk) 14:57, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
On a related note, I often think that Wikipedia would do well to add a separate "meta-cultural" tab to contain just this sort of data. That way, people could feel free to fill it with references in our culture, thus more fully fleshing out the living ideas related to the subject for others and for posterity, while simultaneously keeping the kernel of the article clean and simple. --Walkeraj (talk) 14:57, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but calling it "trivial" sounds to me exactly like IDONTLIKEIT. The selected examples from pop culture don't simply mention the spelling difference in passing but are about it, and are culled from a much longer list. They show that this confusion is common enough, and well-enough known, to be the subject of such treatments. And you keep calling for research, which is exactly what we don't want. As for etymology, it will be of no use, since both versions have the same etymology; they are simply different people's notions of how to set the word down in writing. I'm going to hold off on restoring it for a while, to give other people a chance to give their opinions, but if you remain the only objector then I will restore it. -- Zsero (talk) 21:27, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
While this is an article about Ketchup, I think that there is a point to be made here somewhere and that the back-and-forth editing should stop. I think that a third opinion is necessary at this juncture as you seem rather set in your opinion and I in mine. What do you think? ∴Walkeraj —Preceding undated comment was added at 21:43, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
That's what the talk page is for. Let's see if anyone else chimes in. I will point out, though, that the section has had multiple "third opinions" in the past, in the form of all the people who edited and commented on it. -- Zsero (talk) 21:55, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
To be sure, but I was not using a double entendreplay on words. I was literally referring to the official "third opinion" page, which is for the case when no one does chime in. So, let's say, give it a couple of days and if neither of us have changed our minds, we can make the official third opinion request and get some eyes on it before any further editing occurs. Or, since my edit is the one that currently stands, I could change it back now in good faith. What do you think? ∴Walkeraj 22:27, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
I tend to agree with Walkeraj. Without any analysis this listing is unencyclopedic and inappropriate to the article. It fails to enlighten the reader in any meaningful way. -- SiobhanHansa 00:54, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

FALSE AND MISLEADING IN ALL RESPECTS

The article is a great description of ORGANIC ketchup but not much else. All brands except organic now use high fructose corn syrup, an incredibly unhealthy new additive which is causing all kinds of health problems including obesity. If this page is not corrrected it is a total lie, a heinz shill, and against the best interests of the real truth and its readers.

Can you point me in the direction of a source of this information, it appears to be just your oppinion, but i will check it out :-) philb 16:27, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
I certainly wouldn't call this article shill or "false and misleading in all respects", but the prior poster is correct in saying that commercial non-organic ketchups contain high-fructose corn syrup. I just did a quick check of the ingredient list of the two leading American brands, and they both contain the ingredient. Can't comment on claims that an ingredient is the cause of obesity, and that seems to be a rather multifactorial situation that would not be suddenly corrected by the elimination of all high-fructose corn syrup1.72.144.198.140 16:14, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Ketchup originally a drink?

I can't recall where I heard this but I've believed it for so long. Was ketchup originally sold as a drink? I tried googling the info but can't find anything. Does anyone know if this is true? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.107.15.166 (talk) 19:53, 11 May 2007 (UTC).

Distribution

I believe it might be a good idea to include where ketchup is sold and of what brands. I know that coloured ketchup wasn't sold in Canada at first (but don't know about now) because distributors didn't think Canadian consumers would buy it Canking 00:57, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

world's largest ketchup packet

This article might be interesting to editors. Dr. Cash 03:48, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Kitchencaravan link

Sorry to have used such an non-descriptive edit summary when I first removed the link. The detailed reason I removed it was because it was added by an IP address whose only edits are to add links to that domain to this and other articles. I recalled previously seeing other IPs do the same with that domain (though I've been looking for the diffs to write this up and can't find them) which pretty much makes our definition of spamming. I try not to use the word spam in my edit summaries if an editor hasn't been warned about it as many don't realize such activity is defined that way and it leads to bad feeling, plus there's always a possibility I'm wrong. Anyway, that was the reason for the original removal. It wasn't meant to stop regular editors deciding on what is good encyclopedic content, just stop a random IP from promoting a site throughout our articles.

The link does fall foul of the external links guideline's requirement for a link to be a unique resource since there is already a recipe link on the page. Some editors consider recipe links to be outright unencyclopedic. That's not my stance, I think a particularly classic or well known recipe can be appropriate but that recipe sections for links to editors' favorite recipes can be problematic. But I don't regularly edit this article and it looks like it's in pretty good shape, so this is just fodder for the rest of you to consider. -- SiobhanHansa 21:46, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't think two recipes are excessive. The two are very different, and together give a better idea of the wide variety of ketchups. I wouldn't object to as many as four recipes, if they were different enough from each other; beyond that it would start to look like a link farm. I'm going to leave it alone for a day or so, but after that if nobody raises a substantive objection I'm going to restore the link. Zsero 22:09, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
Something to consider if you want more recipes: Our sister project, Wikibooks, has an entry in the cookbook's tomato based sauces section -- SiobhanHansa 00:37, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Early origins

This section seems to contradict itself over whether ketchup was originally made from tomatoes: 'first half of the word means "tomato" ' HairyDan 12:04, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Tomato is so fundamental to ketchup that I am not so sure about anything not made from tomato as being its early origin. I may be wrong, though. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mountolive (talk • contribs) 23:49, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

You are wrong. Tomatoes may be fundamental to ketchup today, but it wasn't so until the 20th century, and we still have such things as mushroom ketchup and banana ketchup. -- Zsero (talk) 00:38, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Southern U.S. barbecue sauce

Coming from a region in the southern United States which prides itself on barbecue competitions, I certainly have not seen all barbecue sauces, as they are usually proprietary family secrets, but most of the sauces I've encountered either use vinegar or true tomato paste rather than ketchup as the base ingredient. However, on the flip side of the coin, in the many meatloaves I've encountered in this region individuals have used ketchup rather than tomato paste as the primary sauce/glaze. 12.168.178.251 02:07, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

I am also from the southern states and I agree with the above statement, I have only seldom seen catsup as a barbecue sauce base. In most, if not all of the meatloaves my family and friends have made used catsup. Dylpickleh8 (talk) 20:36, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Lycopene hallucinogen?

Removed this line: Although proven to significantly decrease cancer risks, it also has a highly addictive and hallucinogenic effect if ingested in large quantities.

No source, and I couldn't find one. Seems designed to make dumb teenagers eat large quantities of ketchup in search of a high. 71.185.189.130 (talk) 05:48, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Common sense

Well, the Wikipedia is by far something different from what the original intent is and with all this happy "everyone can edit" things are getting out of hand with marketers.

In this particular case, it is one thing to have an illustration of a product (say a bowl of ketchup or some fries adorned with this sauce) and a totally different thing to publish the label of a producer as a "good example".

Fellow wikipedians - guard this article and the others like it if you still wish to have an encyclopedia and not just some other Yellow Pages advert book! 93.126.136.39 (talk) 19:20, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

If the image had been pushed by marketers I would think it would be a rather better photo. Using an image of brand that is iconic for ketchup (which is not the same thing at all as saying it is a good ketchup) is not allowing marketers to get out of hand. There is nothing about Wikipedia that was ever about denying the existence or impact of commercial organizations. It's about making knowledge freely available - which will often include information about commercial organizations where appropriate. I don't think the image of a Heinz ketchup bottle damages this article - for many people it's pretty much the only Ketchup they've ever had. -- SiobhanHansa 20:04, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Pick a photo from the back of the product where the brand is less visible if you imply that the users are too dumb to apreciate something like a bowl of the product as opposed to the copywrighted bottle. Or at least blur the brand and they will recognise it. 93.126.136.39 (talk) 10:25, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
I was implying the point of the photo was to show an iconic brand - so using the back of the bottle or blurring the the brand would be a bit pointless. -- SiobhanHansa 11:20, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Think of something along the lines of [1] before putting that advert again. 93.126.136.39 (talk) 10:49, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

A similar type of photo might be another good addition but it doesn't mean we shouldn't have the Heinz photo too (my personal favorite currently on the page is the hotdog one). However since the actual photo you suggest does not have the free licensing required by Wikipedia it's not particularly useful. Perhaps you should familiarize yourself with Wikipedia's purpose and policies a little more. You seem to be under some false ideas about it. -- SiobhanHansa 11:20, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Viscosity

The "viscosity" section has no references at all and, I would say, no interest, either. It needs serious editing, specially when it comes to the "best techniques" part, which I find totally unnecessary and in poor style. 24.205.74.8 (talk) 07:53, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
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