Talk:First Opium War
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british opium

Would be interesting to know from where the British obtained the opium to trade to China. Tempshill 19:43, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)

They established large plantations in their Indian possessions, making India the largest producer of Opium in the world. Lisiate 20:00, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)

paragraph 2

Paragraph 2 is slightly misleading. Did Europe really have trouble finding goods to import to China because China was so well-developed? As the outcome of the war suggests, Europe was more developed. There certainly weren't such troubles. --68.77.118.232 23:11, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Hello, welcome to Wikipedia! We welcome your contributions. Wikipedia is a wiki, and anyone- including you! - can edit nearly any article, at any time, by clicking the Edit This Page link at the bottom of the article. You don't even need to login, although there are several reasons why you might want to. So, feel free to make this correction yourself! If you are unsure about how to edit a page, try out the Sandbox to test your editing skills. - Fennec 23:11, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)

There was definitely a lack of demand for European trade goods, although I doubt that China's level of development was the cause. We should remember that even well into the 20th Century the vast majority of Chinese lived in rural areas.

Perhaps it is also helpful to note that China was almost entirely self-sustained in its own life style and economic system, even though it was a less developed life-style compare to Europe at that time. Many products of a developed society are also more useful in a developed society. For instance, one might imagine that clocks would have been highly in demand after they were introduced to China. But Chinese society has long since developed a system for time keeping in their own way, which was less efficient and accurate, but nevertheless satisfied the demand of the society at that time. Accurate time keeping really only became necessary after industrialization. So it is understandable that nobody wanted to buy clocks other than the very wealthy and powerful who had the urge to own precious things. Of course, the trade restriction Ming Dynasty imposed has kept the entire nation unexposed to anything the West invented. It is hard to miss something one never had.

It should also be noted that opium importation was undertaken primarily by private individuals, including many American merchants. The British government became involved fairly late in the proceedings, when it essentially ratified the actions of the opium merchants and seized the opportunity to force open Chinese ports.

This article isn't exactly encyclopedic. Ningbo isn't "nearby" Guangzhou, it's a few hundred kilometers away in another province (Zhejiang, then maybe known as Chekiang). Please move to rectify this, anyone.

Thanks

POV

The sentence:

The conflict began a long history of Chinese suspicion of Western society that still lingers today in East Asia.

in the first paragraph, seems based on speculation rather than source. Does the author have any survey or statistical facts to support that statement? Otherwise please remove it. It skews the whole tone of the subsequent article. There are no persons alive who remember the Opium Wars, thus while interpretations of history may affect current Chinese thinking, it can only be a partial factor, one far outweighed for example by Cold War diplomacy and modern Western attitudes.

Skewed Wikipedia entries are also not going to help resolve any such issues.

Also the whole paragraph beginning:

However, in July 1839 rioting British sailors destroyed a temple...

is not the best English and would benefit from being extensively rewritten.

• The title is POV too, most neutral historical texts (in English language) use "First Sino-British War". Pbhj (talk) 15:42, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Ping-pong authorities

Please advise what "Ping-pong authorities" at the beginning of the 5th paragraph refers to. Thanks.--Tonyho 03:21, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Chinese motivations

"Alarmed with the reverse in silver flow after opium trade took hold, the Qing government attempted to end this trade on public health grounds, since numerous opium addicts were appearing in trading ports throughout China."

This sentence suggests rather cynically and quite possibly in racist fashion that the "public health grounds" were pretextual rather than justified in fact. While I do not have the specific facts at hand, it does not take much reasoning to understand that this was not so. Britain had the explicit aim of reversing the balance of trade from their insatiable demand for Chinese tea and did so. When you further consider that the all trade was funneled into discrete locales, the magnitude of the problem and the government's right to address it should be patently obvious. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.122.146.199 (talk • contribs) 23:49, 8 July 2006

I just came to ask the same thing: What is the source for this (yes, cynical and possibly racist) attribution of motive? The Chinese authorities seized something like 2 million pounds of opium in 1839—and while I don't have population figures for the 19th-century Qing empire handy, illicit consumption of that much opium would indicate a serious public health problem for any country in the world even today. Perhaps the Daoguang Emperor was really concerned with widespread addiction to a harmful drug. —Charles P._(Mirv) 05:57, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

WP:MILHIST

I am placing this as Start class; it is an excellent start. It's of a fair length, and offers some details. But for such an important and complex topic, this article could afford to be much longer. The actual events of the war are hidden in "Background" - the entire article progresses from "Background" to "Settlement" with no section for the actual war itself. A better, clearer, description of which battles were fought could also help. Lumping all the fighting into one paragraph just doesn't work. The introduction in particular could also use some expansion. I'm glad that it mentions the overall historical significance of the war - that's crucial to the average reader. So, yes, general expansion, and if possible, pictures. LordAmeth 12:37, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Why Opium

What were the social conditions that made opium so attractive? Obviously Western intervention forced opium to be widely available but why was it so attractive to the general populace? I've never heard a real answer to this question. Jztinfinity 00:20, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Try "Narcotic Culture" by Dikotter et al., this link goes to the conclusion on p.206. It's a good read! Pbhj (talk) 02:52, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

There was a history of opium use in China and Asia in general, in the form of madak, until 1729. Opium happened to also cause very pleasing effects to the user and at the same time caused debilitating problems when frequently used recreationally, not to mention the problem of dependency in a time when supply was controlled via the British monopoly. Imagine if tea caused the same effects, it would've wreaked havoc on the British, as even in its largely harmless state the taxation problem and demand problems it was causing was already becoming enormous. Karajanis 01:46, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

That explanation is easier, but simpler still; why did distilled alcohol become a social problem? Cigarettes? Crack cocaine? Methampethamines? In all of these cases, the answer is that addictive substances became technologically easier to produce and distribute. 140.247.163.157 06:00, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Yongzheng's prohibition in 1729 was quite similar to the American prohibition (and elsewhere) of alcohol. When people can't get beer anymore they end up distilling firewater/whisky/poteen at home, beer is controllable by most, the firewater leads to more health and social problems. When madak was outlawed folks dropped the tabacco use and just used (smoke, eat) opium. The "tea" question of User:Karajanis is interesting as it was the demand for tea (or perhaps more rightly the social use of caffeine, a drug) that required Britain to act to get back some of the sliver leeching out to China. Pbhj (talk) 02:52, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

- At the time China's monetary system was silver-based and in fact silver was the monetary base in most other countries as well. China's luxurious exports did not just end up in UK, instead trades between China and it's suzerainty sphere in East Asia were also prospering. As drinking tea became fashionable in UK, so did quality Chinese tea attracted the British society, and the unbalance trade between China and UK occurred. Forecasting from the national perspective, excessive import of Chinese tea caused great financial problem to the British government, because in return Chinese showed little interest and bought a few British items in two-way trade. As this severing situation continued, opium was chosen by the British government to earn the great loss of silver by the Chinese tea. Health was not the concern that opium would make mankind addicted and destroyed one's life, but balanced account of the trade between the UK and China was the goal to achieve.

Puzzled by article

The article leaves some important points unclear. The first sentence says the war was fought with the aim of forcing China to import British opium. The more detailed account doesn't support that though. Either the first sentence should be changed or material added to fill out the narrative.

The more detailed account says that the Chinese and British couldn't agree on various issues, so some British official tried to establish a boycott and wasn't altogether successful. Then there was fighting that started with British attempts to enforce the boycott against British dissidents, apparently in Chinese waters. So was the war an attempt to enforce a boycott that snowballed? And what were the demands behind the boycott? The article doesn't say.

It appears that the Chinese were annoyed because the British wouldn't let them try some British murderers and the British were annoyed because the Chinese had confiscated 2.500,000 pounds of British opium. The account of the settlement says that the British got extraterritoriality and compensation for the confiscated opium. It says nothing though about future opium imports or why the Chinese couldn't have forbidden them. So if the war was fought to force China to import British opium it appears from the article to have been a failure even though the British were victorious from a military standpoint. Is that right?

Jim Kalb 14:02, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Very confusing at times, especially on matters regarding to Charles Elliot and the British boycott. I don't know much about the war myself, so it would be very helpful if somebody clarified in the article. =] Sue H. Ping (talk • contribs) 23:16, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

I get confused on the opening of hostilities. Are the British ships attacking the East India ships? (The poor English undermines the credibility of the article.)

The sentences "In one isolated incident, in 1818, the Laurel carried word to Sydney of a US ship laden with Opium and treasure which was invaded by Chinese pirates. The crew of the US vessel had all been killed, but for the escaping first mate, who later identified the pirates to the authorities." Is rather unclear in its purpose and its meaning. Is the "Laurel" the name of a ship, the title of an official, or something else entirely? Also, what does it have to do with the rest of the paragraph that ostensibly discusses the state of British trade with China and the ramifications of the importation of opium? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.226.203.161 (talk) 17:59, 20 March 2007 (UTC).

I suspect that this incident is included as an attempt to tie the U.S. to the Opium war. (While in China, I had some teachers tell me that the U.S. had attacked China.)

I have no academic, history background. However, my understanding of the War is related trade rights and Silver. As a national body, China had no interest in things outside China. The trade currency was Silver and this put pressure on Europe which could not mine enough for trade balance. Meanwhile, at a corporate, individual level, Europe was successful in addicting many to Opium, making it lucrative. However, Chinese authorities banned the import of the produce, putting pressure on Silver. The result of the war was that China's ability to restrict the importation was denied.

'The Laurel' was a ship that sailed from Guangzoh to Sydney in 1818. On board were the explorer John Blaxland and the first known Chinese Migrant to Australia, Mak Sai Ying. The ship bore news of the incident regarding the US trade vessel, highlighting the nature of opium trade and tensions experienced at sea at that time. Significantly, Mak Sai Ying returned to China for five years, possibly working import exports, and returning to Sydney two years before the first Opium War. The nature of his Chinese connections and family are currently not known.

I have a natural curiosity regarding Mak Sai Ying, having learned of his existance only recently. DDB 08:52, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

DDB you say "Europe was successful in addicting many to Opium". That's not true. British trade for tea was leaking silver to China and leaving problems in Britain due to the gold standard (backing of the currency). British interests considered how the balance of silver could be reversed and looked at Chinas imports. China imported a lot of opium as its home production wasn't enough to meet it's needs. Britain met the existing demand ahead of competition like Portugal who were also supplying, amongst other goods, opium. There were several incidents, including the ban of opium import (and seizure of British owned opium by the Chinese government) - which led to an embargo enforced by the British Navy which the Chinese Navy tried to break (trying to allow British vessels without Opium through). This with some other diplomatic issues on territoriality led to open conflict. Pbhj (talk) 02:43, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

i think this is a legimate statment. note that DDB did not say "britain was successful in addicting many to opium" but rather Europe was successful in addicting many to Opium and yet you (Pbhj) have interpeted it as such and countered by saying that the portugese were also in on it, which last i've checked was also in europe. this is an glaring example of your ulterior motives in editing this page as extensively as you did. even when someone is not blaming britain you have taken it to mean as such and attacked. i suggest you admit to why you are really editing this page or rethink as whether you should contribute to the disscussion.

Hong Kong and the Opium War's Secret History

just read the article published in The New York Times - The Opium War's Secret History, by KARL E. MEYER on June 28, 1997 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jjpcondor (talk • contribs) 07:30, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

British history

firstly, off topic sorry how do i identify who is the author of a wikipedia article
and how do i contact them
and how can i start one myself
and if i do, can any of you help me start something on the hypocrisy of
our 'history' retellings even here?

i kid you not, although i do believe it, it is definately not the impression i recall being left with on the topic from my schooling i knew opium was a drug, but i think i just tuned out and probably just assumed we were the victim and they were the drug dealers we were fighting like we claim to do today i appear to have been a great example of how we want to believe our own propaganda and reading this fascinating article only seemed to remind me of my personal failings, though i doubt im the worst

i would LOVE to help work on an article or project that illuminated a FAIR and unbiased view on history here on wikipedia especially admitting to our own hypocrisy first so we had some right to attack other people's 'propaganda'

and can it be proven that Queen Victoria knew we were fighting a war over our right to profit from selling harmful drugs to someone else?

or was this another thing where a leader gives someone a knighthood or award without truly knowing what for or the true good or harm done on either side?

amazingBefuddler 05:09, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

ps...is there anyway to 'underline' words here? lol

Odd remarks

There are many strange remarks in this article. Here's one..

"Britain had been on the gold standard since the 18th century, so it had to purchase silver from continental Europe to supply the Chinese appetite for silver,"

The author seems to be implying some sort of causation or logical link between the British monetary scheme and the sourcing of the silver for trade with China. I completely fail to see any link. As there is, and was, negligible silver mining in Britain, silver would obviously have to be purchased from Europe or South America in order to trade it with China in exchange for tea or other Chinese goods. The Chinese prefered to be paid in silver for their export goods. To buy things in China, the British would first need to acquire silver from other countries because they mined none of their own. This would be the case, regardless of whether Britain used a gold standard or a silver standard or any other monetary arrangement in its own economy. Eregli bob (talk) 07:12, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

The paragraph detailing the English 'as the biggest drug trafficking criminal organisation in the world' is beyond comprehension. Given that Opium was not illegal in Britain, and much of Europe - seen as a beneficial painkiller it is a sweeping statement that just retriatriates the usual views put forward by the prohibitionist missionaries of the 19th century, demonising opium to make it into a political tool. People choose to smoke - China had a huge history of it. The drug is not active forcing itself upon the passive person. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.137.210.199 (talk) 10:13, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

(*sigh* -- sadly, this is not the first time I've heard such attempted justifications.)

Here's a thought exercise: compare Chinese policy regarding opium to that of the modern-day United States regarding cocaine. You'll find them rather similar; though the US does use a small amount of the drug as a legal anesthetic, generally the policy is one of strict prohibition. Almost all the coke that comes in does so illicitly, to be snorted/smoked/injected solely to produce a high.

Right. Now imagine that the US government's efforts to interdict smuggling became much more effective. In response to this development, the government of Colombia, now openly in league with drug traffickers, sends troops and ships to Florida (I know, it's unlikely, but try to imagine) to ensure that the imports keep flowing.

What would you think of that? How do you think the Chinese government reacted?

Analgesic use of opium was not the concern. Widespread addiction to powerful narcotics can and does cause serious social problems, which I need not enumerate here. (Go read The Corner if you're curious.) 71.248.115.187 (talk) 19:39, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

(have you thought of registering? you seem to make a lot of contributions, I think it helps others to trust you if you register)

Have you seen "Narcotic Culture" by Dikotter et al., link to conclusion on p.206. It's a pretty convincingly argued case concerning the addiction issue and gives strong arguments as to why addiction was not an issue, or at most a very minor one, in the use of opium (madak, etc.) at the time. One of the points made is that it was a social institution. Opium/Madak was smoked in a "tea room" (tea being a ying substance to opiums yang, or vice-versa) was about 5% as strong as morphine in the opium resin, which when smoked looses about 70-80% or the remaining opiate. It's pretty well compared to alcohol use in the West now (or Pot use in Netherlands (and USA if current reports are to be believed)). Sure some were heavily addicted but only a very few. It was much later when more refined drugs started to be used that the problems really started to escalate. The comparison to using coke as an anaesthetic is poor. Opium was one of the few painkillers available, was an element in chinese medicine (so I've read) since 5th Century and was useful against the sorts of diseases around at the time - mainly disease associated with poverty. Dikotter et al. also argue that it was useful for China to blame it's problems on opium and to blame that on outside influence.

Whilst "The Corner" can give an incite into the effects of hard drugs it's not really a great source for consideration of the issues here being set c.150 years later (1993) and in an entirely different culture about half a world away. Remember the world was still just coming to terms with the idea that germs existed. There was no aspirin or paracetamol, widespread use of injection was years away. Travelling across China took months.

I don't doubt the elite of Britain wished to exploit China to their benefit, but then so did the Chinese merchants. Greed is a terrible thing. If Britain had introduced the opium or refined it or actually dealt it to the people then there would be a much stronger case for culpability. As for the protecting the trade, China wanted to dictate the trade it would allow (not opium, but other things were fine) Britain wanted to trade freely. British merchants tried to get through to trade, the British navy intervened and China tried to stop the navy blockade .. the First Sino-British War followed. Pbhj (talk) 02:26, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

i'm not sure the point you are trying to make is valid because if mass producing the drugs on the stipulation that it be only sold in china and making it available to people who previously have not been exposed to the drug does not count as introducing and dealing the drug i wonder what can be? and so you don't doubt that the elite of britain want to exploit china for their benefit but wouldn't actively creating a larger market for their product fall along those lines?

and really you must not know chinese society very well if you compare the merchant class of china with the elite of britain. in a confucian state the merchant class is ranked as the lowest order in society right below the farmers and peasants. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.104.231.160 (talk) 02:53, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

While calling england the "biggest drug trafficking nation in the world" seems to be using "peacock terms", I think there is plenty of well-documented historical evidence that the English were in it to make money, and didn't really care what happened to China or the Chinese. Unfortunately I'm afraid that colonial/empire era England wasn't a very friendly country. TheStripèdOne (talk) 17:26, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Link to Taiping Rebellion

This is common knowledge, who thinks it needs a citation and why? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.249.60.196 (talk) 16:04, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Couple of reasons I can think of. 1) It's good to get citations for blanket assertions, the words used "almost certainly" suggest there's a degree of doubt; and on to that point ... 2) there were wide scale famines caused in turn by drought, I gather the Imperial forces could seize ones harvest for itself, that would lead to discontent, no? 3) if the rebellion was started due to the Qing government lacking any military power then you'd think it would be first concerned with strengthening military power and that doesn't seem to be the case. 4) There may be a question about religion in there too?

I didn't ask for the citation but my initial view is that it seems warranted. Provide a counterview that shows my position is completely opposite to a worldwide position of "common knowledge" and we might be able to drop the fact-tag. It should be pretty easy to provide a good citation if your position stands. Pbhj (talk) 10:45, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

examine your motivation for doing this. it seems you wish to challenge every edit that can be construed as linking the opium war/britain to anything negative. there is something to be said for defending your nation's history record against slander but you seem to want to absolve britain of any responsibility for the war but the bottom line is that one of the clauses that eventually came out of the war was the right for britain to resume trade in opium a drug that was causing economic and social strife in china. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.104.231.160 (talk) 03:11, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

to pbhj, i suggest some new reference material as well. "The Chinese war : an account of all the operations of the British forces from the commencement to the Treaty of Nanking" while it may mirror your views well is just a bit dated being published in 1840.

the same to be said of your references to opium not being addictive coming from "List of works on victorian medicine pertaining to the question of addiction"

causation of the war

"During the 19th century, trading in goods from China was extremely lucrative for Europeans and Chinese merchants alike. Due to the Qing Dynasty's trade restrictions, whereby international trade was only allowed to take place in Canton (Guangzhou) conducted by imperially sanctioned monopolies, it became uneconomic to trade in low-value manufactured consumer products that the average Chinese could buy from the British like the Indians did.

Instead, the Sino-British trade became dominated by high-value luxury items such as tea (from China to Britain) and silver (from Britain to China), to the extent that European specie metals became widely used in China..."

this introduction says that it was the Qing governments control over trade that excluded demand for "low-value" british made goods. but i wonder if that is the only reason or even if it was a reason. britain chief exports of the period were textiles and african slaves neither of which would have been in any demand in china.

and using statments such as "like the indians did" cheapens the whole argument because it seems to imply that because the indian fell in line and bought from the british that they were better and played by the rules of free trade set by john stuart mill's on liberty. but i wonder how much manufactured goods the indians really bought with as little purchasing power as they had —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.104.231.160 (talk) 03:41, 27 July 2008 (UTC)